The V1 guessing game
- Thread starter RVA
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- 12ax7 preamp tubes v1 position
chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
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OP
RVA
Ambassador
Really nice. Less gain, as expected, and slightly more mellow with softer highs and more lower-mids. I had a Sovtek 12AX7 in there before.
OP
RVA
Ambassador
Now I understand why. The gain structure on my JVM is completely different.
chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Has but one Marshall. Non Master volume, 4 hole 1972 JMP 50 watt 1987 from London to Germany to the USA somehow and eventually on to lil ol me.
No 5751's in mine. If I were to describe it's tone and effect it has on me when I play it, I can just say juicy, feel the pulsations of the Celestion speakers, the sweet auditory sounds that remind me of that Marshall tone such as Tipton and Downing have here. Greanted it looks like they are playing JCM's, but you can certainly hear driven and powerful tone that is not super fizzy gain. Great recording here of the results of their guitar and amp choices.
Note that Craig Goldy has a very different tone than Vivian Campbell...
chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
Speaking of different tones, Whitford and Perry always had different tones too. Same with Angus ad Malcolm.
Yeah, Chili. I wouldn’t touch that amp. It has no fizziness that needs to be tamed. It has a big, fat, glorious sound just the way it is.
What Tubes do you have in it???
Here's how my quest began - for years, we played with everything flat-out. Hey! That's Rock-N-Roll, right??? Trouble was, looking back, it wasn't a really remarkable tone.
Then, in the studio setting, your tone is heavily (if not ultimately) controlled by the engineer, so you are producing whatever tone he/she hears in their head - not yours.
So, I began to realize that my live tone was, quite simply, too much. It lacked culture and definition. It was total garage band, Megadeth worshipping, full gain tonal assault.
Once I started really analyzing some of our favorite rock and roll recordings, I began to realize just how little gain they were really using.
The two most prolific isolated tracks for me were Def Leppard's Foolin and G-N-R's Welcome to The Jungle. Those songs I had head literally a 1000 times, but never paid attention to the lack of gain.
Now consider that Slash was using S.I.R's #34 & #39 on AFD, and George Lynch used the same amps on his tour, but Lynch always seemed more 'gainy' because of his overdrive pedal. AFD had a more natural tone.
I'm still searching, but im really close...
Then, in the studio setting, your tone is heavily (if not ultimately) controlled by the engineer, so you are producing whatever tone he/she hears in their head - not yours.
So, I began to realize that my live tone was, quite simply, too much. It lacked culture and definition. It was total garage band, Megadeth worshipping, full gain tonal assault.
Once I started really analyzing some of our favorite rock and roll recordings, I began to realize just how little gain they were really using.
The two most prolific isolated tracks for me were Def Leppard's Foolin and G-N-R's Welcome to The Jungle. Those songs I had head literally a 1000 times, but never paid attention to the lack of gain.
Now consider that Slash was using S.I.R's #34 & #39 on AFD, and George Lynch used the same amps on his tour, but Lynch always seemed more 'gainy' because of his overdrive pedal. AFD had a more natural tone.
I'm still searching, but im really close...
chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
Smitty, I couple weeks ago I posted a you tube video where a guy played 4 amps and compared the settings and tones from each.
I replied to him and he replied back. He mentioned his same year JMP 50 watt and the 100 watt Marshall Major as being very gainy amps.
I could see where at the volumes he set his at and with the 2 channels jumpered that he'd get that overdriven sound. I set mine exactly like he said and got my LP to sound sweetly distorted. Anyhow, For Robert, I have JJ El34's and I believe 12 AX7 but will have to verify what the V1-4 are exactly.
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Hey, Chili...My current loadout is as follows:
V1 = jj5751
V2 = TAD 7025 WA
V3 = TAD 7025 WA
V4 = TAD 7025 WA
(2) Electro-Harmonix EL34
Vivian's isolated guitar tracks from the recording of Holy Diver. This was his Les Paul Standard (with DiMarzio DP103 bridge pickup 7.65kΩ) directly into a "Standard 2 hole mv 2204 JCM 800"
Viv's guitar comes in at 1:20
This is kick ass tone with lots of mid-range punch!!!
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67plexi
Ambassador of Amps
No offense all have missed the boat the most important tube in your tube amp is the phase inverter That's where I put the NOS money tube every time 10,000 hour tube not the crap they make
today. http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf
When I can find them the 1957-1960 Siemens 12AX7 are the best ever made for the PI http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/SieTel ECC83/ECC834.htm The Raytheon black plate from the 1950 are good also.
today. http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf
When I can find them the 1957-1960 Siemens 12AX7 are the best ever made for the PI http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/SieTel ECC83/ECC834.htm The Raytheon black plate from the 1950 are good also.
OP
RVA
Ambassador
But would you put a 5751 in the PI slot, or seek to reduce gain by way of the PI slot?
gball
Ambassador of Boogie
Point taken, you are correct about that. But I think the conversation was centered on reducing input gain and taming the sizzle in master volume amps, that's why the focus on V1 and lower-gain alternatives to the 12AX7
syscokid
Ambassador of War & Peace
Written by a guy that knows tubes very well. Nothing to dispute here. The PI tube gets worked very hard. It's pretty well known that vacuum tubes were better made up thru the 60's. Better quality of materials and assembly. Which lead to more robustness and consistency. But a lot of NOS prices have become too impractical for most. Fortunately, a lot of today's tube vendors have the equipment and service to consistently offer you the best of the current crop. Still not as good as the old stuff, but where you draw the line may or may not be a challenge to you depending on multiple factors.
Probably a good rule of thumb with modern tubes, is replace the PI tube with every other change of the Power tubes. Any tube failing in the power circuit could easily lead to other component failures.
I'm guessing this would reduce volume a bit. To compensate, you would run the master volume or the overall volume a little harder, thus driving the power valves harder and distorting them. Like I said: "I'm guessing"
Here's an interesting article that discusses that same idea.
It's a pdf file, so it may start to download when the link is clicked.
http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf
Of course, this doesn't really apply to small, single-ended, class A amps that only have one preamp tube and one power tube. But, it is interesting reading.
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syscokid
Ambassador of War & Peace
That's the same one 67plexi posted.
Usually, whichever preamp tube socket closest to the power tubes. Or, the last preamp tube in the chain of preamp tubes of the amp. Unless as smitty_p explained, a one preamp tube circuit is involved. In this case the PI circuit might be designed to only use half of the preamp tube. The other half would be used as a single gain stage.