Let's Discuss Intonation:

Robert Herndon said:
It's present plugged in and unplugged on both guitars...
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Wow, call for an Exorcist or that lady from Poltergeist if she's still around.
"This axe is Cleaah"

Something must be wearing in just a bit at the outset- I know you said this but no odd burrs on the saddle - maybe the strings wear into the rollers after a little bit.

Can you switch on a regular TOM for troubleshooting / evaluation purposes?

This would bug me, yeah.
But it does go away, how long does it take?
 
jtcnj said:
Wow, call for an Exorcist or that lady from Poltergeist if she's still around.
"This axe is Cleaah"

Something must be wearing in just a bit at the outset- I know you said this but no odd burrs on the saddle - maybe the strings wear into the rollers after a little bit.

Can you switch on a regular TOM for troubleshooting / evaluation purposes?

This would bug me, yeah.
But it does go away, how long does it take?
Click to expand...

Yes. the noise was present with the stock ABR-1 TOM. So last night, I changed strings, reset the intonation, and the "jangle" was present. Left it strung up last night, came out this morning and the jangle was gone....
 
Robert Herndon said:
Yes. the noise was present with the stock ABR-1 TOM. So last night, I changed strings, reset the intonation, and the "jangle" was present. Left it strung up last night, came out this morning and the jangle was gone....
Click to expand...

Do you hear the sitar sound only unplugged or do you hear it coming through the amp, too?

If you only hear it acoustically, and not through the amp...then turn your amp up louder!

Dang it!

I’m STILL not helping!
 
smitty_p said:
Do you hear the sitar sound only unplugged or do you hear it coming through the amp, too?

If you only hear it acoustically, and not through the amp...then turn your amp up louder!

Dang it!

I’m STILL not helping!
Click to expand...

Yes. It's ever present...would you check out the red phrases in the OP???
 
Robert Herndon said:
So, I wrestled with this in my had most of the drive home last night and I just cannot accept this theory (as of yet) because to my mind, intonation is a product of mathematics and it can only be "correct" in one position in the saddle's range of movement.

So, I wanted to open this up to discussion and ask your opinions on the topic. To make things a little more focused, I would like to ask these questions specifically:

1. Is there more than one place in a bridge saddle's range of motion where intonation can be correct???

2. What is causing this jangling d/G string anomaly that I thought was cured by dressing the floor of the nut slots???

Thanks..... :)
Click to expand...

Well, Robert, I am not a professional luthier, so keep that in mind. However, I do my own setups and have gotten good results.

As to your statement about intonation being a product of mathematics, that is true. But, there are real-world, physical things which affect the theoretical formulations.

"1. Is there more than one place in a bridge saddle's range of motion where intonation can be correct???"

I would say there is a range where a saddle's position will, more or less, provide acceptable intonation, but only one where it is dead on. I think that's what your luthier acquaintance was trying to say. It's also pretty much what we see when we try to intonate. We can move the saddles a fair amount and the intonation will be very close and acceptable for some purposes, but there ends up being pretty much just one place where it's perfect.

But, that spot will change with the gauge of strings. It can even change with different sets of the same gauge, but differing stiffness. The reason we intonate saddles to different positions is because our guitar strings are not theoretically ideal strings. There is a small section of string right at the nut and bridge which exhibits very little, if any, lateral motion. This is due to the physical stiffness of the string and resistance to flexing with the vibration. This trait is more pronounced with the thicker strings, hence the reason saddles for the thicker strings tend to be positioned further back than their theoretically "correct" location.

Keep in mind, the only place on your guitar where the harmonic and the fretted note are truly the same is at the octave (12th fret). All the other frets are compromises due to the realities of a tempered tuning system.


2. What is causing this jangling d/G string anomaly that I thought was cured by dressing the floor of the nut slots???

This is a tough one because I'm trying to get a sense of what you are describing. You mentioned it has a sitar quality. Is the bottom of the nut slot at all tapered or angled down toward the fretboard? This was an error I had in the first nut I tried to make many years ago. I thought it would be a good idea to sort of radius the fretboard edge of the slot, giving it sort of a tapered entry. I was thinking it would let a string slide more easily in the slot as I used my Bigsby on my '74 SG. This was a mistake. It actually allowed the string to exhibit a high-pitched buzzing (that did have sort of a sitar quality) as it vibrated in the slot. I ended up making a new nut, and things were much better. I don't recall if it went away as the strings aged. I can't say this is your issue, but it was a problem I had.

Just a question, I know you really like the roller bridge, but do you have a regular, non-roller bridge you can try just to see what results you get?
 
smitty_p said:
Well, Robert, I am not a professional luthier, so keep that in mind. However, I do my own setups and have gotten good results.

As to your statement about intonation being a product of mathematics, that is true. But, there are real-world, physical things which affect the theoretical formulations.

"1. Is there more than one place in a bridge saddle's range of motion where intonation can be correct???"

I would say there is a range where a saddle's position will, more or less, provide acceptable intonation, but only one where it is dead on. I think that's what your luthier acquaintance was trying to say. It's also pretty much what we see when we try to intonate. We can move the saddles a fair amount and the intonation will be very close and acceptable for some purposes, but there ends up being pretty much just one place where it's perfect.

But, that spot will change with the gauge of strings. It can even change with different sets of the same gauge, but differing stiffness. The reason we intonate saddles to different positions is because our guitar strings are not theoretically ideal strings. There is a small section of string right at the nut and bridge which exhibits very little, if any, lateral motion. This is due to the physical stiffness of the string and resistance to flexing with the vibration. This trait is more pronounced with the thicker strings, hence the reason saddles for the thicker strings tend to be positioned further back than their theoretically "correct" location.

Keep in mind, the only place on your guitar where the harmonic and the fretted note are truly the same is at the octave (12th fret). All the other frets are compromises due to the realities of a tempered tuning system.


2. What is causing this jangling d/G string anomaly that I thought was cured by dressing the floor of the nut slots???

This is a tough one because I'm trying to get a sense of what you are describing. You mentioned it has a sitar quality. Is the bottom of the nut slot at all tapered or angled down toward the fretboard? This was an error I had in the first nut I tried to make many years ago. I thought it would be a good idea to sort of radius the fretboard edge of the slot, giving it sort of a tapered entry. I was thinking it would let a string slide more easily in the slot as I used my Bigsby on my '74 SG. This was a mistake. It actually allowed the string to exhibit a high-pitched buzzing (that did have sort of a sitar quality) as it vibrated in the slot. I ended up making a new nut, and things were much better. I don't recall if it went away as the strings aged. I can't say this is your issue, but it was a problem I had.

Just a question, I know you really like the roller bridge, but do you have a regular, non-roller bridge you can try just to see what results you get?
Click to expand...

Good post, Smitty!

I conducted an experiment last night. I moved a saddle all the way one way and all the way back in the opposite direction, recording the differences in pitch.

I discovered exactly what the old Luthier was talking about. In several positions, I had good 12th fret intonation, but fretted notes were off everywhere else.

This was most noticeable when playing the b/e barred together.

I think you might be onto something with the nut. I need to examine this more closely.
 
I had another thought on the sitar noise.
Without even trying to make such a noise, I was practicing last night at super low amp volume and while on the G string and fretting near the center of the fretboard, I noticed a funny noise vs up or down the neck or on other strings.

Trying to locate the noise, I think I found the source as being from vibration through my upper strap lock hardware. I am not going to say which style I am using since it might taint the data. Since no one brought that up I will ask if you have any straplocks on the guitar. If so, do you notice the sitar if you play without a strap? Or conversely, do you hear it if you are using a strap too?

Just a thought.
 
smitty_p said:
Oh, that's what he meant. I didn't catch that. That is an interesting observation.
Click to expand...

I didn't believe him at first but then I started messing around with it and I could get perfect 12th fret intonation at several points in the saddles range of motion, but every other note would be off!!!!

I play a lot of barre chords up around the 12th fret...if its out, you will really hear it here.

#1 test for good intonation on b/e strings - intro to Tesla's Love Song...
 
chilipeppermaniac said:
I had another thought on the sitar noise.
Without even trying to make such a noise, I was practicing last night at super low amp volume and while on the G string and fretting near the center of the fretboard, I noticed a funny noise vs up or down the neck or on other strings.

Trying to locate the noise, I think I found the source as being from vibration through my upper strap lock hardware. I am not going to say which style I am using since it might taint the data. Since no one brought that up I will ask if you have any straplocks on the guitar. If so, do you notice the sitar if you play without a strap? Or conversely, do you hear it if you are using a strap too?

Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Hey!!! Good Morning!!!@

You know, I even started taping things off on the guitar trying to isolate the cause. Mom's Les Paul Custom has a roller bridge and no noise...and I have probably installed 15-20 of them recently, so i'm confident the bridges are good.
 
OK Bridges,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but what about strap locks? Loose uts on the tuner posts?

Loose Nut on the input jack?
Also, since you are chasing the intonation adjustment of the saddles,,,,,, is it possible that once intonated nearly perfect for 12th fret PLUS fretted notes and harmonically,,,,,,,,,,,,,, is it possible that if you aren't intonated properly, that the OFF notes are causing what you hear?
 
chilipeppermaniac said:
OK Bridges,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but what about strap locks? Loose uts on the tuner posts?

Loose Nut on the input jack?
Also, since you are chasing the intonation adjustment of the saddles,,,,,, is it possible that once intonated nearly perfect for 12th fret PLUS fretted notes and harmonically,,,,,,,,,,,,,, is it possible that if you aren't intonated properly, that the OFF notes are causing what you hear?
Click to expand...

Checked all of that stuff.

Good point...it could be an intonation imbalance. I'm going to reevaluate it today after all my work last night...
 
chilipeppermaniac said:
OK Bridges,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but what about strap locks? Loose uts on the tuner posts?

Loose Nut on the input jack?
Also, since you are chasing the intonation adjustment of the saddles,,,,,, is it possible that once intonated nearly perfect for 12th fret PLUS fretted notes and harmonically,,,,,,,,,,,,,, is it possible that if you aren't intonated properly, that the OFF notes are causing what you hear?
Click to expand...

So now my intonation strategy is this: Set 12th fret intonation first. Check 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th fret individual notes, then check open and barre chords all the way up the neck and average-out until each note in a chord are all in tune.

It really sounded better after I did it this way.
 
Robert, My blind friend just got a Telecaster he asked for help intonating. I can see, and it is not an easy matter especially given the 3 barrel type Tele bridge and it's inherent compromises in this department.

Here is a Video you might enjoy too. I hear a lot of Johan in your tone as I listened today to both of you.

 
chilipeppermaniac said:
Robert, My blind friend just got a Telecaster he asked for help intonating. I can see, and it is not an easy matter especially given the 3 barrel type Tele bridge and it's inherent compromises in this department.

Here is a Video you might enjoy too. I hear a lot of Johan in your tone as I listened today to both of you.

Click to expand...

Thanks!!!
 
Read this comment also, Robert in Johan's video.

One viewer says, "The strings on the 12 neck resonate sympathetically that's why it sounds like that. My sitar used the same principal - just 300 years earlier :)"
 
Robert Herndon said:
So, I wanted to open this up to discussion and ask your opinions on the topic. To make things a little more focused, I would like to ask these questions specifically:

1. Is there more than one place in a bridge saddle's range of motion where intonation can be correct???

2. What is causing this jangling d/G string anomaly that I thought was cured by dressing the floor of the nut slots???

Thanks..... :)
Click to expand...
Robert,

the answer to Your intonation problem is here:

Stephen Delft's Compensated Nut

Guitar Geometry and Intonation Error, Nut Compensation and Saddle Compensation

Even a really simple nut compensation, say moving the nut a few tenths of a mm closer toward fret 1, will improve the situation.
 
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