Let's Discuss Intonation:

Here's a video of random double neck mayhem. It's mostly just random noodling, but pay attention to the chords played up near the 12th in Rory Gallagher's "Road to Hell."

You seldom, if ever hear these chords in tune when you hear someone play it live...

 
Very Very Cool Robert! When I encounter a tuning error of any sort I look at the nut. I have been building, fixing, breaking and playing guitars for many years. I did a a matter good reason replace the OEM nut with a hand cut bone nut. I know that the stock stuff is cut too deep or too shallow.
I have put brass nuts on several of my work guitars. I have had complete success, I always check the bridge, neck and new strings are always a good start.
 
Very Very Cool Robert! When I encounter a tuning error of any sort I look at the nut. I have been building, fixing, breaking and playing guitars for many years. I did a a matter good reason replace the OEM nut with a hand cut bone nut. I know that the stock stuff is cut too deep or too shallow.
I have put brass nuts on several of my work guitars. I have had complete success, I always check the bridge, neck and new strings are always a good start.

I haven't ruled out making my own nut for this one. the 12 string side is perfect, but I think the 6 string side could be better...
 
I haven't ruled out making my own nut for this one. the 12 string side is perfect, but I think the 6 string side could be better...

I enjoyed cutting nuts but I started buying the pre cut ones. They seem to work just fine. I cut a nut for my Japanese Yamaha 12 string and that was stupid on my part. I think I broke over six blanks and it took time I didn't want to waste.
 
I enjoyed cutting nuts but I started buying the pre cut ones. They seem to work just fine. I cut a nut for my Japanese Yamaha 12 string and that was stupid on my part. I think I broke over six blanks and it took time I didn't want to waste.

Can you send me a link to the nuts of which you speak????
 
Found some cool stuff:

he guitar is fretted to produce musical notes in equal temperament. Equal temperament means that the 12 notes within each octave are evenly spaced. Well, not exactly - the frets are placed closer together as the notes get higher, such that the frequency doubles in the span of an octave. An octive occurs at the 12th fret, half way between the nut and the bridge saddle. The perception is that the notes sound evenly spaced to us. Fretted notes sound out from the length of a string from the fret to the saddle. The frets are laid out so as to cause the correct length of string (from each fret to the saddle) to produce the correct pitch when played. The layout of the frets, does what it is supposed to do.

Keep in mind that, for all fretted notes, finger pressure tension has been added (increasing pitch) whearas open strings are played at lower tension. That's why intonation for opens needs to remain separate from fretboard intonation.

Each fret space is .94387 as wide as the previous fret space, as you go up the fretboard. This can be expressed in another way: The distance from the nut to the first fret is equal to the scale length divided by 17.817. the distance from the first fret to the second is equal to the remaining scale length ( from the first fret to the bridge) divided by the same constant - 17.817. There is a formula for calculating the position of any numbered fret, but, there is no need to get bogged down with math. For many, understanding comes naturally, but for others it's helpful to simply some experimentation with you instrument. The layout of the frets, does what it is supposed to do.

Intonation error from pulling a string to the top of a fret
When we fret a string, we add tension to the string, raising the pitch. Lengthening the string at the saddle compensates for that added tension by resulting in lower pitch for any fretted note, compared to the open string. We increase the string length by changing the point of suspension on the saddle.

Generally, as we move up the fretboard, the tension becomes greater, because the strings are higher off the fretboard. Compensation at the bridge takes care of this nicely because the added distance to the saddle becomes a greater proportion of the vibrating length as you move up the fretboard.

Intonation error from the stiffness of a string
Because of the stiffness of a string, the string does not bend perfectly at the edge of the saddle. The effective point of suspension, as far as vibration is concerned, is beyond the actual point of suspension. The effective point of suspension at the bridge is just a bit in front of the saddle. Also, the effective point of suspension of any fretted note will be ahead of the top of the fret. Both of these contribute to the need of saddle compensation.

We may not have thought of the stiffness effect before, because we compensate by trial and error, and make the required adjustments irrespective of the specific causes of intonation error.

We can easily see now, why the smallest wound string needs less compensation than the biggest unwound string: the stiffness of a string is largly determined by the string’s core size, not its overall size, and the core size of the smallest wound string is small compared to its overall size. It is also smaller than the biggest unwound string.
 
Choosing Which Two Frets to Use For Saddle Adjustment
In order to select which two frets to use when comparing pitch for adjusting the saddle(s), a player should carefully consider what portion of the fretboard needs the most accurate pitch, based on what portion she most often uses.

It's not usually a problem for acoustic guitars, because they usually are not played much above the neck joint. Compare pitch at the fret where the neck joins the body to the pitch at the 2nd or 3rd fret. That would be frets 12-2 for a classical guitar (it does not need to be an octave) and usually 14 - 2 for a steel string acoustic. That should give you good results up to about 4 or 5 frets above the high test fret. You need to use an accurate tuner - see: Comparing Two Notes - Cents-Off.

For very proficient acoustic players, needing accuracy well above the neck joint on an acoustic guitar (perhaps with a cutaway) it is first necessary that the fret levels above the neck joint are in good alignment with the rest of the neck, with no excessive falling off of the fretboard away from the strings. If that is a problem with a particular guitar, the options are to repair, upgrade, or just treat it as stretch tuning in the upper register (it's a feature, not a defect).

It is possible to use a higher set of test frets, such as 15-3, 16-4, or 17-5. Normally, the base strings are not played above the neck joint on an acoustic, so don't use a higher range on those strings that don't need it. The range does not have to be the same for all the strings.

Electric guitar players are much more likely to play higher up. For someone regularly playing all the way up to the 24th fret, I would reccommend using 17-5. One luthier recommends, on his website, using 19 - 7, but I don't concur, because the highest frets are likely to go a bit sharp (see: The Clothesline Effect) and to try to correct them downward would end up causing pitches, starting a few frets down, to be flat. There is no easy remedy for the sharping, so I suggest just calling it stretch tuning in the higher register. (I have read that playing a high lead a bit sharp causes it to stand out from the rest of the band, which may be a good thing.)

The saddles on electric guitars are usually easy to adjust, so use your best choice of test frets and make the adjustments. It's a good idea to then take various sample measurements of the results, and if you could improve the intonation with a different set of test frets, go for it! Return to top

Stretch Tuning
Stretch tuning means progressively making higher notes more sharp. Pianos are usually stretch-tuned. That is because, at the highest octaves, there are problems with the overtones matching the notes on the octaves below, and at the lower octaves, there is a problem matching the overtones with the lowest octaves. Correction for these problems results in an S-shaped curve of intonation, with the higher notes being raised even higher, and the lowest being lowered even more. On a piano, each note is intoned separately. Because of longer string length, concert grand pianos need the least correction from equal temperament.

On a guitar, however, notes cannot be intoned separately, so, in order for a particular note to be the same on multiple strings, for stretch tuning, it would be necessary to stick with a constant rate of pitch increase, the same on all strings. The guitar does not have nearly the range of the piano, so there is really no need for stretch tuning. The piano plays 8 octaves, while the guitar plays only 4.

Stretch Tuning should not be tied to nut compensation, but it could be used in conjunction with nut compensation. As I understand the Buzz Feiton System, it does not seem to use overall stretch tuning, but uses stretch on some strings in order to effect particular harmony tweaks.

Still want to try it? To effect stretch tuning, the strings are shortened at the saddle so that the notes from low to high are progressively sharpened - by how much? Pianos stretch about 2 1/2 cents per octave, on the lowest and highest octaves. It would depend on preference – try it and see if it sounds nice to you (usually not difficult on an electric guitar, unless you reach the saddle adjustment limits). Remember to consider what other instruments you will be playing with, and how they will be tuned. Oh, and you’ll need a special tuning procedure!

As an acoustic guitarist, stretch tuning holds no appeal for me, but if I were playing high, soaring solos on an electric guitar, I might possibly think differently.

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Choosing Which Two Frets to Use For Saddle Adjustment
You must find a "rule of thumb" approach. Reason: nut correction depends on the strings. And You customers will use different strings. So IMHO a well done compromise is the best option. Even shifting the nut by about 0.5 mm toward the bridge will improve the situation, and it will do regardless wether You use a wound G or a plain G (which is the largest problem in a "universal" approach). And e strings thin as .007 or as thick as .015.

reagrding the highest frets: please do an estimate on other possible causes of inaccurate intonation: the demand on the precision of the string length are twice as large as close to the nut, the danger of unwanted bending of the strings is larger., the demands of the precistion of crowning the frets ist larger... i would not care about that. It will improve by some reasonable amount of nut compensation, and that's all You can achieve.
 
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Robert I am not reading all that! Too long! I behave like a 6 year old and read on a 7th grade level, take my word for it.
 
I sorry for pooping at your sailers. You did make a very meaningful post. I have been following you on near every word. I am sorry for messing around.
 
You must find a "rule of thumb" approach. Reason: nut correction depends on the strings. And You customers will use different strings. So IMHO a well done compromise is the best option. Even shifting the nut by about 0.5 mm toward the bridge will improve the situation, and it will do regardless wether You use a wound G or a plain G (which is the largest problem in a "universal" approach). And e strings thin as .007 or as thick as .015.

reagrding the highest frets: please do an estimate on other possible causes of inaccurate intonation: the demand on the precision of the string length are twice as large as close to the nut, the danger of unwanted bending of the strings is larger., the demands of the precistion of crowning the frets ist larger... i would not care about that. It will improve by some reasonable amount of nut compensation, and that's all You can achieve.


Bea,

Ein Fragen...

When intonating, is it possible (as I have been told) to have a overtone or a false harmonic along the saddles range of motion???
 
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