Tonewood and Magnetism - Missing the Point

[smitty_p]

Very long post ahead (sorry).

RANT MODE: ON

Alrighty, let me wander deep into choppy waters because, hey, that's what I do!

First let me say, I am not a tonewood advocate...nor a denier. I'll explain that later.

There is a statement I've read that bugs me a little because it really misses the point of the tonewood issue, as it relates to electric guitars. Yet, it is often tossed out as a confident debunking.

The statement goes something like this:

"The tonewood idea makes no sense because pickups are magnetic and they can't sense wood."

That, of course, is intended to settle the debate. Besides, it sounds so science-y to say that!

The problem is, it completely misses the point the tonewood advocates are making. It's a bit like a drunk driver insisting he should not be ticketed because he wasn't speeding. That's not a perfect analogy, but you see the point.

The thing is, tonewood advocates don't insist the pickups "hear" the wood! The point they are trying to make is that the way the wood responds to vibrations, through the native absorptive and/or reflective characteristics of the wood, has a reciprocal effect on the vibration of the strings.

Simply, when a string (or anything) vibrates, not only do you get the fundamental, you get a myriad of harmonics. When a vibration on a string encounters a barrier (the bridge and nut) some vibrations will be absorbed, some will be reflected. Different materials have different absorptive characteristics. Some may reflect some overtones better than others (keeping that frequency "alive" on the string). Other materials may tend to absorb those frequencies (hastening the decay of those frequencies).

So, again, the tonewood advocates are NOT saying the pickups sense the vibrations of the wood! They are saying pickups sense the vibration of the STRINGS (we all agree on that, right?). They are only suggesting the wood influences those string vibrations.

Now, I know we've seen any number of whiteboard warriors on Youtube and heard any number of sound clips attempting to prove or disprove the tonewood idea. Well, they all fall short. First, anyone can prove just about anything on a whiteboard if he draws the pictures properly. There's a saying, "Figures don't lie; but liars do figure." Second, sound samples are unconvincing as people hear differently. Some may not hear any difference; others may be psychologically influenced to perceive a difference.

So, what do I think?

I DON'T KNOW!

Here's why I say that.

I have yet to see a real test done. I don't mean a listening test. Even double blind tests are crippled by the differing hearing sensitivities of people.

I mean a test where ALL elements except the guitars are kept constant and the signals are analyzed by real test equipment (oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers, etc.) to see if there is a difference.

Here's how I'd do a test:

1. Build two sample guitars of different kinds of wood, but otherwise identical. Keep them simple. Don't install any electronics. Just run the pickup directly to the test gear.

2. Construct a robot to strum or pluck the sample guitars. This ensures the attack is consistent on the testing.

3. Set the robot to pluck or strum a string at several points on the guitar. Conduct each test at least ten times.

4. Record the results of the test equipment (i.e., an O'scope trace or spec analyzer plot).

5. Relocate EVERYTHING - pickup, tuners, bridge, nut, even the strings, to the other guitar.

6. Repeat the test on the second guitar.

7. Analyze the results.

RANT MODE: OFF

The bottom line for me is this: I personally don't think the wood makes that big a difference. Even if test equipment showed a difference, I don't think most of us would hear it, and I do think a lot of what we hear is psychologically motivated. But, until we see a hard-core lab test, I hesitate to come down too authoritatively on one side or the other.

Have a nice day!

 

[eSGEe]

oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers,

Can you get these at harbor Freight?

 

[smitty_p]

Can you get these at harbor Freight?

No. There are PC-based o'scope and spectrum analyzer programs, but they can have some latency and slow sampling. A good, lab-quality piece runs about $50,000.00

 

[gasket]

No. There are PC-based o'scope and spectrum analyzer programs, but they can have some latency and slow sampling. A good, lab-quality piece runs about $50,000.00

If only $50K we all should have one in our too box :-0

 

[eSGEe]

runs about $50,000.00

yeah,,,,,,,no

 

[gasket]

I personally don't think the wood makes that big a difference. Even if test equipment showed a difference, I don't think most of us would hear it

That sentence summed it up IMHO!

 

[RVA]

I am the maker of that statement. It was not made in tHe context of a debate to settle all bets, it was said as sacasm, plain and simple.

Now I will make an argument. ARGUMENT HAT ON (which means you can't get personally offended If my statements are adamant)

Now, what evidence do you have that strings are sympathetic to the wood that surrounds them? Admittedly, none, for you have never seem a valid test. But you are not a tonewood advocate, just their pro hac defender of the moment.

So I offer you a test. I offer everyone here a test. We can all agree that I have a number of guitars. I will split them up 50/50, those with maple necks and fretboards and those with mahogany necks and rosewood fretboards. I will then make a category of maple cap v. all hog. I will make any category you want. I bet you nobody, no skilled musician or luthier, does better than approximately 50/50.

I will anticipate tHe next argument, which would be "well, the 2 categories of guitars would have to be the same in all other respects except the variable." I would argue that while this may be true from a scientific perspective, it is irrelevant from a practical perspective. If you cannot hear it, if none of us who obsess about these instruments can hear it, it does not matter.

Now, what would be the same is the amp, effects, open pots, cable length and recording medium in my test. But these things are rarely the same in real life, making it exquisitely less likely that you will be able to tell what kinds of wood the guitar is sporting in real life

Tonewoodies are contrarians, they are criticizers. They will take issue with every test. But they offer nothing in return, especially anything that matters. So I challenge every tonewoodie who ever existed, take the test. Prove me wrong. If anyone can consistently guess, I will change my opinion. Until then, the debate is moot, dead, irrelevant and simply mental masturbation.

Throw your names in the hat below. Define the categories. Prove me wrong.

 

[smitty_p]

I am the maker of that statement. It was not made in tne context of a debate to settle all bets, it was said as sacasm, plain and simple.
.

You're not the only one. I've read it long before I saw you make the statement!

I do realize you weren't trying to settle a debate and I apologize if I've come across as singling you out.

I have, however, read such things elsewhere that were intended to settle debates.

 

[smitty_p]

Now, what evidence do you have that strings are sympathetic to the wood that surrounds them? .

Actually, there is a simple test you can do. Plug your guitar into your amplifier. Strike a tuning fork and touch it to any part of the guitar, far away from the strings or pickups. You'll hear sound through the amplifier. The fork is setting the body into vibration and the strings begin to vibrate sympathetically to the body. It will be most effective if you use a tuning fork that is the same frequency as one of the strings.

Granted, that is extreme and well beyond the strength of the vibrations the strings would impart to the body and receive back again, but it does demonstrate that the strings can vibrate sympathetically to the body.

 

[RVA]

Actually, there is a simple test you can do. Plug your guitar into your amplifier. Strike a tuning fork and touch it to any part of the guitar, far away from the strings or pickups. You'll hear sound through the amplifier. The fork is setting the body into vibration and the strings begin to vibrate sympathetically to the body. It will be most effective if you use a tuning fork that is the same frequency as one of the strings.

Granted, that is extreme and well beyond the strength of the vibrations the strings would impart to the body and receive back again, but it does demonstrate that the strings can vibrate sympathetically to the body.

How do you know that is what it is doing? How do you know the fork is setting into the body rather than just the strings? Abd if they are, which I doubt given the meager vibration of the fork, how do you know it would vibrate the body differently with different woods? Tonewoodie talk a big game, critisize proof, but provide none.

And please do not worry or apologize. I am a lawyer and every word I write or utter gets challenged, so I am used to it. I have also been accused of being a tad caustic in my arguments which is why I apologized in advance. I love this stuff!!

 

[smitty_p]

...pro hac defender ...

I like the sound of that.

Do I get to wear a cape!

 

[smitty_p]

How do you know that is what it is doing? How do you know the fork is setting into the body rather than just the strings?

If the tuning fork isn't touching the strings, but only the body, there is no way the vibration can get to the strings, except they pass through the body first.

I suppose the vibrations could pass through the air and vibrate the strings, but you still have an intermediary mass - air versus a wooden body. Besides, now we're opening the discussion of Tone Air!

how do you know it would vibrate the body differently with different woods?

I don't! That's the point of testing. Even if it did, I don't know I could hear the difference. Honestly, I'd sort of like to see a test like the one I described come back and demonstrate that there is no difference in supposed "tone woods."

But, I think it is important that the discussion is framed correctly.

If the discussion is framed something like, "Different woods do not affect tone sufficiently (or at all) to be perceived by human hearing", then that, to me, is a more accurate depiction. The idea of wood not affecting tone because pickups are magnetic and can't sense wood completely misses the point.

 

[gasket]

The quote and comment at post #6 should have ended this thread ... ZZZzzz zzz zzz
zz

 

[JohnnyGoo]

Now its 5 AM coffee time here in Oregon and this is some pretty heavy reading for this early in the morning. Smitty man,love your punctuation and sentence structure. My head hurts already from reading all this.Carry on. Hey i did see on the news the other morning were some outfit was attaching head phones to wooden Liquire barrels of some sort and playing different music on them for 3 years to see how it effected the taste.Talk about tonewood.

 

[Col Mustard]

Smitty said:

1. Build two sample guitars of different kinds of wood, but otherwise identical. Keep them simple. Don't install any electronics. Just run the pickup directly to the test gear.

2. Construct a robot to strum or pluck the sample guitars. This ensures the attack is consistent on the testing.

3. Set the robot to pluck or strum a string at several points on the guitar. Conduct each test at least ten times.

4. Record the results of the test equipment (i.e., an O'scope trace or spec analyzer plot).

Kernel says: I believe this is a great recipe for a HIT RECORD! And a VIDEO!! ...can you see the shots of the
robot(s) industriously strumming AND plucking away, from different camera angles and lighting setups,
mixed in with fades to adoring fans, shrieking groupers, fading into shots of the oscilloscope AND the spec
analyzer, returning to the high tech "Techno music" ...maybe a store mannequin at the keyboard and
at the mixing board, mixed in with shots of breaking surf tube waves, trains entering ye tunnel, jet airliners
taking off, blondes in convertibles wearing white bikinis and good ol' #5 tracking himself down Venice Beach.
"weapons free..."

I think we're really onto something here. Forget the tone of the wood, maple necks are lovely! Curly maple on a Les Paul looks great, except for the line down the middle. Mahogany on an SG or a Les Paul Studio is also lovely and toneful. And they all look and sound good in our video. All of them. I'm for diversity, can you tell?


For my part, the only argument stopper concerning tone wood is to conduct the experiment with acoustic
guitars. Like duh. If you want to know how wood affects tone, just ask someone who plays acoustic. Like me.
Everyone can hear it, especially if I turn off my chorus pedal. To me, the answer is plain... wood has a huge
effect on tone, when the human ear listens to vibrations through the air. I have microphones mounted inside
my acoustic guitars, so I can amplify the acoustic tone of the strings, the wood, the guitar's shape, and my
own technique. That's why we go to the trouble of hauling acoustic guitars around. To get that tone wood sound.

But wood is not magnetic, so my feeling is that the tone of electric guitars is affected much more by the
bridge and the nut, the pickups, the strings, the pick, the amp and the speakers. My mind is open on the
subject of overtones and other vibrations, but I feel their influence is so small that it isn't worth losing friends
over.

Peace. Now, about the nibs...

 

[Biddlin]

Sigh.....................................................................................................................................................................

 

[smitty_p]

Forget the tone of the wood, maple necks are lovely! Curly maple on a Les Paul looks great, except for the line down the middle. Mahogany on an SG or a Les Paul Studio is also lovely...

Yup. That's one reason why it would be cool if an intensive lab test could demonstrate no (or negligible) influence of wood on tone. It would, perhaps, allow some people to just enjoy the wood on their guitars for the beauty of it, rather than thinking, "I love the quilt on this top, but I think it's making my tone too bright."

For my part, the only argument stopper concerning tone wood is to conduct the experiment with acoustic
guitars. Like duh. If you want to know how wood affects tone, just ask someone who plays acoustic.

Agreed totally!!!

 

[smitty_p]

Kernel says: I believe this is a great recipe for a HIT RECORD! And a VIDEO!! ...can you see the shots of the
robot(s) industriously strumming AND plucking away, from different camera angles and lighting setups,
mixed in with fades to adoring fans, shrieking groupers,

Ha! I was actually thinking more of a simple, robotic arm! Actually, I do have the intellectual resources to do that part of it. My son has his degree in mechanical engineering and is working on his master's right now. Anyway, he did some robotics in college and could design and build the robot. He could even write the code into an arduino board to operate the robotic arm.

Incidentally, what got me thinking about all this stuff a few years back were the discussions he and I had when he was studying materials and vibrations as part of his college work.

 

[Tony M.]

Can I play?
(Not very well but that's beside the point.)

So anyway...
(Wrong thread. Cancel line 3 of post.)

I am not arguing either way.
I don't claim to be able to pick what guitar is being
played through what amplifier with my old ears.

but...
Once again...


I have 2 Gibson ES 335s.
A red one and a sunburst one.


Same electronics.
Same hardware.
Same pickups.
Same strings.
Same setup.
Same me playing them through the
same cable into the
same amplifier playing the
same notes and chords.

That's 9, count 'em, NINE sames.
That's a whole herd of sames
stampeding down the pike.


Now the differents:
They are from different trees.
They are different colors.
Only 2.
No.
3.

They sound different.
Very different.
How can this be?


Am I crazy?
(We'll go there some other time.)

The point is there is no point (Ooh, a play on words...)
in obsessing about why they sound different when I can
just spend all that time playing them and enjoying it.

I don't care why they sound different and in fact,
if they sounded the same one of them would be
redundant and I would probably sell it.

Go play your guitars people.
Overthinking leads to loss of fun time.

 

[gball]

I am a "tonewood" agnostic. But, I know my Les Paul and SG sound different despite having the same pickups. I know that if I put those same pickups in my Legacy, ASAT, or even Firebird they are all going to sound different. I know this from playing many guitars over the course of too many years. I really don't actually care about the argument one way or another because when it comes to what I hear coming out of my amp the reason why they sound different doesn't really matter...but I do know that whatever it is that makes them different is good, because it gives us may different sounds and many different ways to express ourselves. That, in the end, is all that matters.