syscokid
Ambassador of War & Peace
As long as they all test good, and are not too unbalanced, any of them should be fine.
HALLELUJAH...
Tube Behavior - ECC823 Thread:
- Thread starter Inspector #20
- Start date
OP
As long as they all test good, and are not too unbalanced, any of them should be fine.
HALLELUJAH...
My current load out is:
V1: ECC83MG
V2: JJ 5751
V3: JJ ECC83S
V4: TAD-7025WA
Should I leave the rest of my tubes in this arrangement and just drop the JJ ECC823 in V1???
OP
Thanks for the tip!
OP
I'm getting less finicky about tone and more about volume.... 
syscokid
Ambassador of War & Peace
It's essential to have a good tone at whatever volume suits your needs.I'm getting less finicky about tone and more about volume....
OP
All 3 of my guitars have great tone... no matter what amp I play them through...most likely because they are so closely related.
OP
OP
From The Web:
The JJ ECC823 is wired in reverse of the ECC832 / 12DW7. In the ECC823 the first half of the tube (pins 1, 2 and 3) are the high gain 12AX7/ECC83 spec (gain factor 100) and the second half (pins 6, 7 and 8) are the low gain 12AU7/ECC82 spec (gain factor 20).
The JJ ECC823 is wired in reverse of the ECC832 / 12DW7. In the ECC823 the first half of the tube (pins 1, 2 and 3) are the high gain 12AX7/ECC83 spec (gain factor 100) and the second half (pins 6, 7 and 8) are the low gain 12AU7/ECC82 spec (gain factor 20).
Last edited:
OP
Found this onine:
The most important tube in your amp? The Phase inverter!
Many people think that V1 (the first gain stage) is the most important tube in an amp. This is
true in some cases but not in all cases. V1 (usually the preamp tube closest to the input jack)
has the largest impact on your tone and gain but has less impact on your output distortion touch
dynamics and output stage distortion than the phase inverter. The phase inverter is generally
the preamp tube that is the most close to your output tubes in most amps.
Let’s think about this for a moment. Today’s amps come in many “flavors”. There are three
basic amp topologies looking at things from one viewpoint.
• Non Master volume amplifiers
• Master volume amplifiers
• Channel switching amplifiers
In master volume amps we have pre and post phase inverter master volume controls. These
work differently but for this piece of writing I will put them in the same master volume category.
Rolling down the master does what? It allows the front end to be driven harder and thus we
hear our front end distort. At some point we can drive some amps so hard in the front end that
the tone becomes so compressed and distorted that even I can sound like a decent player! Your
mistakes are covered up in the mush and distortion of ti all. This distortion is passed down the
signal chain where it is reproduced and amplified by the output stage of the amp. This has
nothing to do with output stage distortion. This type of distortion is not touch sensitive. This
type of distortion is not something that most articulate players would favor for a sweet tone,
blues tone, or even classic rock tones. This is NOT what people refer to as the “brown sound”.
Channel switching amps. Many of these amps have so much “junk” in the signal path that
hearing tube changes in V1 is a pretty hopeless endeavor. When you do hear a change it is
because the tube is closer to industry spec than another tube may have been. If you want to
hear different great tones from swapping out V1 then listen to the tube under test in a more
classic amp design.
Channel switchers continued. I get calls and letters all the time where people have a “bonzo-3
channel gripmaster Mk III recto” or whatever. Many owners of these amps say: “the owner’s
manual says that V3 is used for the turbo channel” or whatever. Remember, V1 feeds
EVERYTHING else down the line, EVEN IN THESE AMPS. The “turbo channel” generally does not
use JUST V3. The chain is fed by V1. V1, even in multi channel amps is still the most important
tube in the TONE AND GAIN stage of most amps. If you want to change the ratio of preamp
tube distortion to output tube distortion then we change V1 in some cases. Going from a 12AX7
to a 5751 will reduce front end gain. Going down to a 12AY7 will reduce the front end gain
further and generally give one more clean headroom.
Back to the phase inverter. Taking a simple classis non-master volume amp (but this is the
same for master volume amps as well actually).
I will try to keep things simple here with a few basics. If you have questions on all the complex
versions feel free to contact me.
Fender Tolex era amps – These generally used a 12AT7 in the phase inverter.
Marshall type amps – These generally used a 12AX7 in the phase inverter.
There are many other differences in these amps but I will stick to the PI (phase inverter).
The most important tube in your amp? The Phase inverter!
Many people think that V1 (the first gain stage) is the most important tube in an amp. This is
true in some cases but not in all cases. V1 (usually the preamp tube closest to the input jack)
has the largest impact on your tone and gain but has less impact on your output distortion touch
dynamics and output stage distortion than the phase inverter. The phase inverter is generally
the preamp tube that is the most close to your output tubes in most amps.
Let’s think about this for a moment. Today’s amps come in many “flavors”. There are three
basic amp topologies looking at things from one viewpoint.
• Non Master volume amplifiers
• Master volume amplifiers
• Channel switching amplifiers
In master volume amps we have pre and post phase inverter master volume controls. These
work differently but for this piece of writing I will put them in the same master volume category.
Rolling down the master does what? It allows the front end to be driven harder and thus we
hear our front end distort. At some point we can drive some amps so hard in the front end that
the tone becomes so compressed and distorted that even I can sound like a decent player! Your
mistakes are covered up in the mush and distortion of ti all. This distortion is passed down the
signal chain where it is reproduced and amplified by the output stage of the amp. This has
nothing to do with output stage distortion. This type of distortion is not touch sensitive. This
type of distortion is not something that most articulate players would favor for a sweet tone,
blues tone, or even classic rock tones. This is NOT what people refer to as the “brown sound”.
Channel switching amps. Many of these amps have so much “junk” in the signal path that
hearing tube changes in V1 is a pretty hopeless endeavor. When you do hear a change it is
because the tube is closer to industry spec than another tube may have been. If you want to
hear different great tones from swapping out V1 then listen to the tube under test in a more
classic amp design.
Channel switchers continued. I get calls and letters all the time where people have a “bonzo-3
channel gripmaster Mk III recto” or whatever. Many owners of these amps say: “the owner’s
manual says that V3 is used for the turbo channel” or whatever. Remember, V1 feeds
EVERYTHING else down the line, EVEN IN THESE AMPS. The “turbo channel” generally does not
use JUST V3. The chain is fed by V1. V1, even in multi channel amps is still the most important
tube in the TONE AND GAIN stage of most amps. If you want to change the ratio of preamp
tube distortion to output tube distortion then we change V1 in some cases. Going from a 12AX7
to a 5751 will reduce front end gain. Going down to a 12AY7 will reduce the front end gain
further and generally give one more clean headroom.
Back to the phase inverter. Taking a simple classis non-master volume amp (but this is the
same for master volume amps as well actually).
I will try to keep things simple here with a few basics. If you have questions on all the complex
versions feel free to contact me.
Fender Tolex era amps – These generally used a 12AT7 in the phase inverter.
Marshall type amps – These generally used a 12AX7 in the phase inverter.
There are many other differences in these amps but I will stick to the PI (phase inverter).
OP
Part II
Some basic tube facts
• 12AX7
o Has a published spec gain of 100
o Has a publishes spec current output of 1.2 milliamps
• 12AT7
o Has a published spec gain of 60-70
o Has a published spec current output of 10.0 milliamps (ten times that of the 12AX7
as a side note)
As a third example, a 5751 has a gain which is almost identical to the 12AT7 but it’s standing
current is 1.0 milliamps (about the same as the 12AX7). But, there is a third factor,
transconductance, to be considered. The 5751 has a transconductance of about 1200. A
12AX7 has a “TC” of about 1600 and a 12AT7 has a TC over 5000. These three tubes act quite
differently. A 5751 and 12AX7 are much more closely related than the 5751 and 12AT7.
We will stick to the basic 12AX7 and 12AT7.
When you push your amp hard it is not as much the output tubes distorting as it is the
phase inverter breaking down and distorting. We are talking output stage distortion here.
We are not talking about how you may have messed up the signal with preamp tube distortion
and compression already. The phase inverter may be the hardest worked tube in most
amps. I cannot begin to count the times when I have found phase inverters that were long past
their service life. When you change your output tubes change that phase inverter. At the least
change it every other output tube change.
Many folks think that when they want to have their amp have more clean headroom they can
insert a 12AT7 in place of the 12AX7. Very true. (By the way, the 12AT7 in a first gain stage is
an awful tone generator in a guitar amp. If you want to drop front end gain use a 5751 (gain of
60-70) or a 12AY7 (gain of 40). The 12AY7 was the first gain stage in the classic Fender Tweed
Bassman, Deluxe, etc.
Going from a 12AX7 to a 12AT7 in the PI (phase inverter) will yield a change in output tube
distortion, touch, and output dynamics in most amps. Is this because the gain is lower in the
12AT7? 10% yes perhaps. The lower gain is a factor but the larger factors are:
• We have almost 10 times the current available to drive the output tubes before the phase
inverter starts to break down.
• We have a transconductance of 5500 vs 1600 of the 12AX7. Keeping this simple, it
means it takes a lot less input signal for a given output signal.
The output tubes are less important than many folks may think. Think about this. In the
Hi-Fi world there have been many amplifier designs. Some such as the Scott and Fisher lines
used EL-84 output tubes. McIntosh used 6L6 and 6550 / KT88 tubes. Dynaco and some British
amps used EL-34 tubes. All of these amps, when operated at the rated specs generally stated
that from 20-20,000 cycles at .5% distortion or less they were considered “flat” by industry spec.
The output tube type had very little to do with anything. In guitar amps we purposely push the
output tube beyond their design limits to make them distort. The difference between a Svetlana
6L6 and an RCA 6L6 is the difference in the way the tube sounds when it is pushed beyond it’s
design limits. Being in the “tube business” this is not a great subject. What I am basically
saying here is: Before you go to a pricy output set of tubes and a possible need to rebias the
amp think about a simple phase inverter change. There are no amp adjustments necessary when
you change the phase inverter.
Some basic tube facts
• 12AX7
o Has a published spec gain of 100
o Has a publishes spec current output of 1.2 milliamps
• 12AT7
o Has a published spec gain of 60-70
o Has a published spec current output of 10.0 milliamps (ten times that of the 12AX7
as a side note)
As a third example, a 5751 has a gain which is almost identical to the 12AT7 but it’s standing
current is 1.0 milliamps (about the same as the 12AX7). But, there is a third factor,
transconductance, to be considered. The 5751 has a transconductance of about 1200. A
12AX7 has a “TC” of about 1600 and a 12AT7 has a TC over 5000. These three tubes act quite
differently. A 5751 and 12AX7 are much more closely related than the 5751 and 12AT7.
We will stick to the basic 12AX7 and 12AT7.
When you push your amp hard it is not as much the output tubes distorting as it is the
phase inverter breaking down and distorting. We are talking output stage distortion here.
We are not talking about how you may have messed up the signal with preamp tube distortion
and compression already. The phase inverter may be the hardest worked tube in most
amps. I cannot begin to count the times when I have found phase inverters that were long past
their service life. When you change your output tubes change that phase inverter. At the least
change it every other output tube change.
Many folks think that when they want to have their amp have more clean headroom they can
insert a 12AT7 in place of the 12AX7. Very true. (By the way, the 12AT7 in a first gain stage is
an awful tone generator in a guitar amp. If you want to drop front end gain use a 5751 (gain of
60-70) or a 12AY7 (gain of 40). The 12AY7 was the first gain stage in the classic Fender Tweed
Bassman, Deluxe, etc.
Going from a 12AX7 to a 12AT7 in the PI (phase inverter) will yield a change in output tube
distortion, touch, and output dynamics in most amps. Is this because the gain is lower in the
12AT7? 10% yes perhaps. The lower gain is a factor but the larger factors are:
• We have almost 10 times the current available to drive the output tubes before the phase
inverter starts to break down.
• We have a transconductance of 5500 vs 1600 of the 12AX7. Keeping this simple, it
means it takes a lot less input signal for a given output signal.
The output tubes are less important than many folks may think. Think about this. In the
Hi-Fi world there have been many amplifier designs. Some such as the Scott and Fisher lines
used EL-84 output tubes. McIntosh used 6L6 and 6550 / KT88 tubes. Dynaco and some British
amps used EL-34 tubes. All of these amps, when operated at the rated specs generally stated
that from 20-20,000 cycles at .5% distortion or less they were considered “flat” by industry spec.
The output tube type had very little to do with anything. In guitar amps we purposely push the
output tube beyond their design limits to make them distort. The difference between a Svetlana
6L6 and an RCA 6L6 is the difference in the way the tube sounds when it is pushed beyond it’s
design limits. Being in the “tube business” this is not a great subject. What I am basically
saying here is: Before you go to a pricy output set of tubes and a possible need to rebias the
amp think about a simple phase inverter change. There are no amp adjustments necessary when
you change the phase inverter.
OP
Part III
In real life we rarely get to the point of pushing our output tubes to their limits. Our front end is
going into distortion. Our phase inverter is breaking down too. The ratio of this front end
distortion to phase inverter drive and breakdown is determined by amplifier design topology. You
cannot make a Marshall into a Fender no matter how many people tell you that this can be done.
Putting 6L6 tubes in a Marshall will NOT make it sound like a Fender either.
There are many 12AX7 types of tubes available. They are all different even though they are
supposed to have the same specs. Even when one looks at the same tube type from the same
maker out of the same production run we find HUGE variances. +/- 50% off spec is common.
Most 12AX7s today show a current output of 0.6-0.8 milliamps where 1.2 milliamps is expected.
You throw a 12AX7 in your PI slot with a 0.8mA output and you are 30% down on what the amp
can do right off the bat. Your amp is not as full, tight, responsive, or just plain “powerful” or
dynamic. Many of today’s high production amps use the Sovtek 12AX7WA short plate as a
generic 12AX7. I have issues with these in the tone and gain stage but staying with the topic of
phase inverters, these are just awful (12AX7WA Sovtek) for the most part. In tests these show
very low standing current. The Ei long smooth plate also shows low standing current, even
though a long plate. Generally, large plate tubes will show higher standing current but this is not
always the case. The JJ ECC83S has the highest standing current of any current production
tube. The JJ is a short plate tube. The JJ is an exception. You might think the JJ would be a
good PI. Not from my personal taste. The way the JJ breaks down is not as musical to my ear
in most amps and I do not care for the touch response and dynamics of the tube in the PI position
in most amps. What do I like? I like the Sovtek 12AX7LPS and the GT 12AX7M. The GT
12AX7M is also available as a matched phase inverter from the SAG over at GT as the SAG-AX7-
MPI. There is also an SAG-AT7-MPI. I have talked about matched phase inverters in other
places prior to this piece of writing. The 12AX7M and 12AX7R2 (Sovtek 12AX7LPS) are both long
plate designs. In either case I check these for specs because in all cases there is a wide range of
variables from tube to tube and run to run in production.
There are a lot of great NOS tubes. They have advantages in the tone and gain stage but they
are not as available as production tubes made today. When you are on the road or on tour these
are harder to find. In the case of the phase inverter we do not want to stock a bunch of Mullards
or Telefunkens to burn up every output tube set change. There are great current production
tubes that give us all we can ask for.
Other great phase inverters to consider are the 5751, 12AY7, and 12AU7.
The bottom line here is simple. The phase inverter is one of the most important tubes in your
amp and the hardest worked tube in the preamp section of your amp. It is how this tube breaks
down that provides your output stage distortion tone, character, and amp feel.
Myles S. Rose
www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com
www.groovetubes.com
In real life we rarely get to the point of pushing our output tubes to their limits. Our front end is
going into distortion. Our phase inverter is breaking down too. The ratio of this front end
distortion to phase inverter drive and breakdown is determined by amplifier design topology. You
cannot make a Marshall into a Fender no matter how many people tell you that this can be done.
Putting 6L6 tubes in a Marshall will NOT make it sound like a Fender either.
There are many 12AX7 types of tubes available. They are all different even though they are
supposed to have the same specs. Even when one looks at the same tube type from the same
maker out of the same production run we find HUGE variances. +/- 50% off spec is common.
Most 12AX7s today show a current output of 0.6-0.8 milliamps where 1.2 milliamps is expected.
You throw a 12AX7 in your PI slot with a 0.8mA output and you are 30% down on what the amp
can do right off the bat. Your amp is not as full, tight, responsive, or just plain “powerful” or
dynamic. Many of today’s high production amps use the Sovtek 12AX7WA short plate as a
generic 12AX7. I have issues with these in the tone and gain stage but staying with the topic of
phase inverters, these are just awful (12AX7WA Sovtek) for the most part. In tests these show
very low standing current. The Ei long smooth plate also shows low standing current, even
though a long plate. Generally, large plate tubes will show higher standing current but this is not
always the case. The JJ ECC83S has the highest standing current of any current production
tube. The JJ is a short plate tube. The JJ is an exception. You might think the JJ would be a
good PI. Not from my personal taste. The way the JJ breaks down is not as musical to my ear
in most amps and I do not care for the touch response and dynamics of the tube in the PI position
in most amps. What do I like? I like the Sovtek 12AX7LPS and the GT 12AX7M. The GT
12AX7M is also available as a matched phase inverter from the SAG over at GT as the SAG-AX7-
MPI. There is also an SAG-AT7-MPI. I have talked about matched phase inverters in other
places prior to this piece of writing. The 12AX7M and 12AX7R2 (Sovtek 12AX7LPS) are both long
plate designs. In either case I check these for specs because in all cases there is a wide range of
variables from tube to tube and run to run in production.
There are a lot of great NOS tubes. They have advantages in the tone and gain stage but they
are not as available as production tubes made today. When you are on the road or on tour these
are harder to find. In the case of the phase inverter we do not want to stock a bunch of Mullards
or Telefunkens to burn up every output tube set change. There are great current production
tubes that give us all we can ask for.
Other great phase inverters to consider are the 5751, 12AY7, and 12AU7.
The bottom line here is simple. The phase inverter is one of the most important tubes in your
amp and the hardest worked tube in the preamp section of your amp. It is how this tube breaks
down that provides your output stage distortion tone, character, and amp feel.
Myles S. Rose
www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com
www.groovetubes.com
bea
AmBASSador of the F Clef
An ECC81 and an ECC83 sou
Something else to consider: if You want to drive tetrodes with fixed bias (6V6, 6L6, KT66, KT88 ...) the grid leak resistor (i.e. the load on the previous stage) becomes pretty small (100k per tube, i.e. 50k for 4 tubes in push pull). Although the ECC83 is able to drive four of these tubes it is at its limits doing so. The 5751 even more - same large output resistance as the ECC83, but even less maximum anode power capability (66%). That's why the ECC81 and the ECC82 with their comparatively large maximum anode power and the large possible anode currents are superior here.
The 5751 will perform nicely as a phase inverter if the load is either just a pair of EL34 or EL84 which do not load the PI stage as heavily as e.g. 6L6es or if there is a driver stage between PI and power tubes (again, ECC82 or ECC81, usually as cathode followers, the latter with elevated heater potential)
Let me stress this: the ECC81/12AT7 is usually severely microphonic. That won't matter much in the PI position, but it does a lot in the input stage.
Something else to consider: if You want to drive tetrodes with fixed bias (6V6, 6L6, KT66, KT88 ...) the grid leak resistor (i.e. the load on the previous stage) becomes pretty small (100k per tube, i.e. 50k for 4 tubes in push pull). Although the ECC83 is able to drive four of these tubes it is at its limits doing so. The 5751 even more - same large output resistance as the ECC83, but even less maximum anode power capability (66%). That's why the ECC81 and the ECC82 with their comparatively large maximum anode power and the large possible anode currents are superior here.
The 5751 will perform nicely as a phase inverter if the load is either just a pair of EL34 or EL84 which do not load the PI stage as heavily as e.g. 6L6es or if there is a driver stage between PI and power tubes (again, ECC82 or ECC81, usually as cathode followers, the latter with elevated heater potential)
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Dude, I can't read all that $hit, but digest this...
Thank You Goldmember...
Thank You Goldmember...
OP
Ok,
So, considering my current mix of available tubes - JJ 5751, JJ ECC83 MG, Marshall ECC-83S, and TAD 7025 WA's, which ones would be the best starting point for my DSL40C with the incoming JJ-ECC823 going into the V1 position???
So, considering my current mix of available tubes - JJ 5751, JJ ECC83 MG, Marshall ECC-83S, and TAD 7025 WA's, which ones would be the best starting point for my DSL40C with the incoming JJ-ECC823 going into the V1 position???
bea
AmBASSador of the F Clef
Depends on what You want to achieve... if the amp hast too much gain i would start with an 12AY7 or 5751 in stages 3 and 4 (V2) and use a 7025 or even an ECC83 if there is not enough gain.
If You want to swap V3 take care to use a tube that allows for large cathode potentials - due to the cathode follower stage in system 2. This excludes ECC81, 12AY7 and most 5751, the latter with the exception of the JJ-5751 which allows for a large cathode potential like the ECC82 and ECC83.
BTW: this is the schematics, isn't it? https://drtube.com/schematics/marshall/DL40-60-02 (2002) iss9.pdf
BTW: You could also try a ECC82 as V1, although that might be pretty radical. Or a 12AY7. Its combined gain should be slightly less than the combined gain of both system of an ECC823.
If You want to swap V3 take care to use a tube that allows for large cathode potentials - due to the cathode follower stage in system 2. This excludes ECC81, 12AY7 and most 5751, the latter with the exception of the JJ-5751 which allows for a large cathode potential like the ECC82 and ECC83.
BTW: this is the schematics, isn't it? https://drtube.com/schematics/marshall/DL40-60-02 (2002) iss9.pdf
BTW: You could also try a ECC82 as V1, although that might be pretty radical. Or a 12AY7. Its combined gain should be slightly less than the combined gain of both system of an ECC823.
OP
OP
Well, perhaps a different question. What effect would the JJ-5751 have in V2 as opposed to V3???