NGD - New Gibson Day - SG content

Hey guys!

So, I took the SG for its first road trip. Went to the capital to rehearse with the boys and took it along for its debut with my gigging rig (so far I had only fiddled her around with my little Orange crush 35, no pedals, in a low volume.

Let me tell you how it was. First off, so far we were a 100% Fender band. Our bassist plays a Jazz Bass and a passive Dimension, both American; the other guitar dude has two Am Std strats, one SSS and the other one is loaded with Seymour Duncan JB minihumbuckers. My guitars you all already know, two Fender SSS strats both having fat 50s on them. Both of us play 40/50watt valve amps.

Ok, we set the gear up and started playing. Oh, boy! I mean, oh, boy! That guitar should have "bad Mother hugger" written on the TRC. It sounded incredibly creamy, with lovely mids and decent treble, no noise at all despite the complete lack of shielding, and BRUTALLY thick and dark.

Needless to say, it has double the output of any of my Fenders, being slightly less bright (which we all expect, after all it's solid mahogany with classic 57s vs solid alder/maple neck with single coils), but the tone is something I had never heard.

What surprised me the most was that whenever my partner brought his strat with the SDs, I felt like it had a greater richness in tone, I even considered switching the pups in my red strat and load it with SDs too, but never did because of my natural love for pure and immaculate SSS strats; BUT, guess what: the Gibson totally outplayed that strat. The 57s sound MUCH richer and louder, I don't really know why but everyone in the band was positively surprised.

We obviously did the classic switcheroo as well, he plugged the Gibson into his rig and I plugged his strat into mine, and still the Gibson sounded much fuller and greater.

It was like comparing a gorgeous, elegant pegasus to a fire breathing dragon. I never thought minihumbuckers and/or the wood and construction of a strat would make the guitar sound so hugely different from a Les Paul or SG.

Of course, I had played Gibsons before and lots of epiphones too, but I never really compared a Strat and a SG like that, all my life as a musician was made of one instrument style at a time.

I confess: I still like my Am Std Strat more, but this SG will definitely change my life as a guitar player.

P.S. that only endorsed my personal conviction: strats should have single coils and sound like strats. If I want humbuckers, I'll choose a guitar that was designed for them.
 
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very cool to read, and fascinating to imagine.

I don't believe that a Gibson tone can replace a Fender tone in a band or onstage.... They are each unique
in their own way. But the two can add to each other beautifully. So I totally agree with
the statements you make. Having only the Fender sounds is really no problem... Lots of bands play like this.
But when one of the members comes up with an SG (and let's be honest: A Les Paul or a Vee would give your
band something similar) ...I believe that it can enhance your tone by giving you the additional depth and
presence.

Use them for different songs... I would. And I'm glad you are appreciating what you bought. Gibson and Fender
belong in the same band IMHO, adding to the sound the other makes. Remember that you started this thread by saying that you hate yourself... Don't hate yourself any more.
You made a good choice.
 
Yes, Col!

I am going to do so, each guitar will suit a specific setlist when we go out gigging.

One does not replace the other. The Fender will fit the more bluesy/indie repertoire, and the SG will be assigned to cover the harder/heavier stuff.

I think I described them well; the Fender is gracious as a pegasus, the SG is a powerful dragon...
 
Sérgio said:
Hey guys!

So, I took the SG for its first road trip. Went to the capital to rehearse with the boys and took it along for its debut with my gigging rig (so far I had only fiddled her around with my little Orange crush 35, no pedals, in a low volume.

Let me tell you how it was. First off, so far we were a 100% Fender band. Our bassist plays a Jazz Bass and a passive Dimension, both American; the other guitar dude has two Am Std strats, one SSS and the other one is loaded with Seymour Duncan JB minihumbuckers. My guitars you all already know, two Fender SSS strats both having fat 50s on them. Both of us play 40/50watt valve amps.

Ok, we set the gear up and started playing. Oh, boy! I mean, oh, boy! That guitar should have "bad Mother hugger" written on the TRC. It sounded incredibly creamy, with lovely mids and decent treble, no noise at all despite the complete lack of shielding, and BRUTALLY thick and dark.

Needless to say, it has double the output of any of my Fenders, being slightly less bright (which we all expect, after all it's solid mahogany with classic 57s vs solid alder/maple neck with single coils), but the tone is something I had never heard.

What surprised me the most was that whenever my partner brought his strat with the SDs, I felt like it had a greater richness in tone, I even considered switching the pups in my red strat and load it with SDs too, but never did because of my natural love for pure and immaculate SSS strats; BUT, guess what: the Gibson totally outplayed that strat. The 57s sound MUCH richer and louder, I don't really know why but everyone in the band was positively surprised.

We obviously did the classic switcheroo as well, he plugged the Gibson into his rig and I plugged his strat into mine, and still the Gibson sounded much fuller and greater.

It was like comparing a gorgeous, elegant pegasus to a fire breathing dragon. I never thought minihumbuckers and/or the wood and construction of a strat would make the guitar sound so hugely different from a Les Paul or SG.

Of course, I had played Gibsons before and lots of epiphones too, but I never really compared a Strat and a SG like that, all my life as a musician was made of one instrument style at a time.

I confess: I still like my Am Std Strat more, but this SG will definitely change my life as a guitar player.

P.S. that only endorsed my personal conviction: strats should have single coils and sound like strats. If I want humbuckers, I'll choose a guitar that was designed for them.
Click to expand...

Strats need 24-3/4" scale necks and twin PAF's....
 
Sérgio said:
Yes, Col!

I am going to do so, each guitar will suit a specific setlist when we go out gigging.

One does not replace the other. The Fender will fit the more bluesy/indie repertoire, and the SG will be assigned to cover the harder/heavier stuff.

I think I described them well; the Fender is gracious as a pegasus, the SG is a powerful dragon...
Click to expand...

Whenever I gig out, I annotate the setlist with the guitar that I'm going to use for a particular song. I always bring at least my Stratocaster and some humbucker guitar, like my Les Paul or SG. This is why I can't classify myself as "a Les Paul guy" or an "SG guy" or a "Strat guy." Such labels are too limiting and fail to appreciate the unique capabilities/contributions of different instruments.

In fact, when practicing at home, I actually practice the transition from one guitar to the next. I built an A/B switch, so both guitars can stay plugged in. I don't have to unplug one guitar and plug the other one in. So, all I have to do is put down one guitar, pick up the other, and hit the A/B switch with my foot.
 
smitty_p said:
It's no use, Sergio.

But, I feel your anguish. I am ~just~ tolerant of an HSS Strat, though I prefer the SSS format.

But, a 24 3/4" scale Stratocaster...with twin humbuckers?

Abomination!

Such a guitar is not a Stratocaster. It is an SSO (Strat-Shaped Object).


(Hey...did I just sniff a cork?)
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I think you just sniffed a whole case of corks there, smitty!

But I get your point. If you want a guitar to do a certain thing, get a guitar that does in fact do that thing. A Strat does what a strat does, a Tele what a Tele does, and so on.

But what if you are the young Eddie Van Halen and want a Gibson sound but a Strat feel? Well, you make the Frankenstein! A Strat with a PAF! Although

I definitely prefer "classic" looking guitars, I guess it would be rather stifling to a lot of creative people not to be able to mess with such guitars.
 
Gahr said:
But what if you are the young Eddie Van Halen and want a Gibson sound but a Strat feel? Well, you make the Frankenstein! A Strat with a PAF!
Click to expand...

I got no problem with that. I like super strats.

But, honestly, my comments in my post above are (mostly!) to be taken tongue-in-cheek.

Though, I admit to a bit of a peculiarity when it comes to calling something a "Stratocaster." Sure, I'll use the nick-name "Strat" to refer to whatever SSO, to include Fender Stratocasters, to let others understand the type of guitar I mean. It's a quick, simple way to help others visualize the type of guitar shape and styling. Cool.

But, for me, using the full, proper name, "Stratocaster," is a term I reserve for guitars using, at least, bodies and necks built by Fender or intended to be sold under the Fender name, to include the Squiers. I would apply the same type of approach to Telecasters, vs. the nick-name "Tele."

Is this attitude something I intend to be taken as guitar truth? No, not at all. Very possibly, given enough scrutiny, inconsistencies could be found in this approach. I'm not trying to create some official criteria, here. It certainly is not something that's worth debating...It's just how I think about Stratocasters.

I guess I did sniff a case of corks!
 
Gahr said:
I think you just sniffed a whole case of corks there, smitty!

But I get your point. If you want a guitar to do a certain thing, get a guitar that does in fact do that thing. A Strat does what a strat does, a Tele what a Tele does, and so on.

But what if you are the young Eddie Van Halen and want a Gibson sound but a Strat feel? Well, you make the Frankenstein! A Strat with a PAF! Although

I definitely prefer "classic" looking guitars, I guess it would be rather stifling to a lot of creative people not to be able to mess with such guitars.
Click to expand...

I've had conversations with Ed years ago and I have played his Frankenstrat. We both frequented Grover's workshop at his home. There is no Gibson tone in Ed's guitar. Yes...it has a thicker tone than an average Strat, but it is immediately identifiable, sonically, as a Stratocaster.

The same is true with Dave Murray's Stratocaster, equipped with dual humbuckers...you can pick his guitar out of the mix...

Scale length is the largest and most misunderstood contributor to a guitars' tonal quality....
 
You know, I have been through a lot of situations where I needed/wanted a certain tone/feel and was never able to nail it. There's more to my quest than just being different....

For example, I had a vintage 68 Gibson SG that suffered from tuning issues due to neck joint flex. I then bought a brand new Gibson SG in 2003 and that one was plagued by intonation and tuning stability problems, pickup squeal and hum. Again, I found myself returning to the Stratocaster for tuning stability, intonation precision, and quiet operation, at the expense of my desired tone.

When I purchased this brand new 2016 Gibson SG in September of 2016. I believed that Gibson had, perhaps, got past all the issues that plagued the earlier guitars across all their models. I was wrong. I didn't spend a lot...the Gibson and Gator TSA case was a little less than $1,000 out the door, but the guitar cannot be used in a live situation, or when a particular recording would dictate running a tube amp very near full volume. If you search this forum, you can read the email I sent to Nicolas Chemsak at Gibson in 2004 about the problems I was having with my then-new, 2003 Gibson SG. The content of that email is almost verbatim of the problems I am having with a 2016 Gibson SG.

I cannot bond with the SG. If it doesn't sell, I will likely give it to one of my students who is really showing a high level of dedication to his studies.

And so, this old Squire is extremely HEAVY, it doesn't have really great sustain, the string tension at A440hz is a little heavier than I like due to the scale length, but it has been RELIABLE, if not the ideal companion for the past 30 years.

When I discovered my 2005 Schecter C1 Hellraiser, I found what was almost the perfect guitar. Lightweight, 100% mahogany construction, neck-through/string-through configuration, absolutely perfect intonation and tuning stability, dual active humbuckers that won't feedback, even in front of a cranked amp and a nice looking finish. The Schechter has been played on at least 500 recordings that we can keep track of, endured countless live performances and has never required tuning adjustment during a performance. I can also stand in front of my JTM45 Full Stack at elevated volumes, let go of the guitar and not have a feedback issue. These are super-important things to me as a performer, because if I have to fiddle around with my guitar. amp, effects, etc., then I have robbed the crowd of my full attention.

However, there were things that I didn't like...

First was the scale length. Notes sound different on a 24-3/4" scale than on a 25-1/2" scale because of the frequency of string vibrations. I hear this with absolute clarity. The tension of a .010" string at A440hz will be tighter and more resistant to bending on a 25-1/2" scale than on a 24-3/4" scale. Most approach this by switching to a thinner string, which results in thinner tone, less tuning stability and shorter string life.

Next was the position of the tuning keys. 6 inline keys makes sense for many reasons. First there is economy of movement. One singular hand movement to address all 6 keys. Secondly is the string pull through the nut on the Fender designed headstock is dead-straight. This also contributes to improved tuning stability.

The active EMG's, while dead quiet, lack some of the 'character' that I like from a low output (7-8k) PAF and there is no coil tapping ability which gives versatility in different recording scenarios.

So I decided the only way to get what I truly wanted was to build it....

The Stratocaster Project aims to accomplish all these features in one instrument...a highly versatile guitar known as the (SAW) - Session Assault Weapon.

The body will be early style (large) Stratocaster with the swimming-pool rout and tremolo-style input jack. The bridge will be a string=through hardtail with early 1950's bridge string spacing. The string ferrules will be brass. The saddles will be solid, roller-type...NOT because the rollers actually roll, but because the radii of the roller provides a very gentle bend for the strings over the saddle. Dunlop straplocks will be used that will enable me to continue to use the leather, non-adjustable strap I made in 1980, which is set for a Strat-style body shape.

The neck will feature 24-3/4" scale mahogany construction, standard 4-bolt attachment, 1-11/16" width at the nut, large (early style) headstock, double-acting truss rod, ebony dual radius (10"-16") fretboard, 6230 Stainless Steel frets crowned to .030" height. Conventionally spaced (read: familiar) abalone dot fretboard inlay with mother of pearl side dot markers, a Tusq-style (Teflon) nut, stock Fender (Vintage 11/32") tuners and stock Fender roller string trees. Strings used will be my personal standard, Ernie Ball .046" X .009" Hybrids, which I use on all my guitars. regardless of scale length.

The headstock will be engraved with the "Von Herndon" logo (designed by forum member Jean Gaudet) and "Made In USA" and the serial will be "VHO - SAW 00001" (Von Herndon Original - Session Assault Weapon Number 1.")

The cavity will be shielded with copper. The pickguard will be made from Rosewood and copper shielding on the back. Each wire conduit leaving the pickups will have a ferrite core around them. Electronics will consist of 1 volume and 2 tones (500K Bourns) with coil tapping and in/out phase capability, similar to the wiring setup used by Joe Walsh in the Les Paul he gave to Jimmy Page. Pickups will be Gibson nickel covered PAF's (57 Classics) with 7.5k ohm impedance and .033uf tone capacitors. The selector switch and input jack will be high quality pieces from Switchcraft.

The body will be finished with a brown stain, very similar to the "faded brown" found on the Gibson SG's and finished with lemon oil.

This is, of course, a work in progress....

In the interim, the old 1987 Squire will be fitted with a pair of Gibson 57 Classics 7.5k humbuckers and a custom-made (by me) wire harness featuring 1 volume and 1 tone with a .022uf tone capacitor. I am debating whether or not I want to invest in building a 1 volume 2 tone coil/tap in/out phase harness right now for the Squire, or just use the more simplistic 1 volume 1 tone harness.

In the end, you will see that there is a method to my madness....
 
Robert Herndon said:
So I decided the only way to get what I truly wanted was to build it....

The Stratocaster Project aims to accomplish all these features in one instrument...a highly versatile guitar known as the (SAW) - Session Assault Weapon.

... The saddles will be solid, roller-type...NOT because the rollers actually roll, but because the radii of the roller provides a very gentle bend for the strings over the saddle.
Click to expand...

First, Robert, nothing personal against you is meant by anything I've said.

Believe it or not. I really do get the idea of wanting that highly versatile guitar that is nearly a one-stop tone-shop. I've put pen to paper several times to create just that.

Then something happened.

I decided that wouldn't be any fun (for me, at least)! This is where peoples' different personalities become apparent. I realized I didn't want one guitar to do it all. I learned I really like switching guitars to get the sounds of those guitars. I actually enjoy the feel of Stratocaster...and the feel of a Les Paul...and the feel of an SG...and the feel of a big semi-hollow... You get the idea.

I suppose it's two sides of the same coin. For me, I suppose it's less a matter of searching for "my tone." Sure, there are sounds I like, such as a Les Paul driving a raging Marshall or a Strat pushing a meaty Fender. But my obsession became more a matter of how I could harness the guitar's tone and the amp's tone.

As for the roller bridge, I'm curious you would opt for that. I completely get your point about the bend radius, but regular saddles are generally regarded as providing more precise intonation than rollers.

Anyhoo, I don't want you to feel ganged-up on. I get your point and understand your perspective.
 
Robert Herndon said:
I've had conversations with Ed years ago and I have played his Frankenstrat. We both frequented Grover's workshop at his home. There is no Gibson tone in Ed's guitar. Yes...it has a thicker tone than an average Strat, but it is immediately identifiable, sonically, as a Stratocaster.

The same is true with Dave Murray's Stratocaster, equipped with dual humbuckers...you can pick his guitar out of the mix...

Scale length is the largest and most misunderstood contributor to a guitars' tonal quality....
Click to expand...
I definitely never think of a Stratocaster sound when I listen to Van Halen...

I'm sure you are right about the scale length affecting sound, but I'd never place the Frankenstein in the Strat category of sound.

But that's really irrelevant. I love my SGs, you dig your Schecter. That's the important thing. Rock on, brother!

Btw., Ed recorded "Hot for Teacher" on a Flying V. Now there's a nice Gibson sound!
 
Gahr said:
I definitely never think of a Stratocaster sound when I listen to Van Halen...

I'm sure you are right about the scale length affecting sound, but I'd never place the Frankenstein in the Strat category of sound.

But that's really irrelevant. I love my SGs, you dig your Schecter. That's the important thing. Rock on, brother!

Btw., Ed recorded "Hot for Teacher" on a Flying V. Now there's a nice Gibson sound!
Click to expand...

"Srat Sound" is an overtone...a harmonic anomaly created by the string tension at a given pitch...you cannot escape it with a 25-1/2" scale length.

Listen to the difference between Dave Murray's Super-Strat and Adrian Smiths guitars...there is a bright, twangy quality in Murray's tone...the same as Van Helen's....
 
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