Jim Lill makes some valid arguments

Clockworkmike said:
My beef with this whole thing and people like Jim Lill in general is this: the argument that it doesn't matter what amp you use because in the end, as audio mixing and preamps will be what changes the sound is simply bogus.

Why do I say this? Simple: then how come every other band sounds different and what about recordings BEFORE massive technological advancements in mixing? Yeah absolutely mixing changes the sound and you can hide a lot of slop and crappy sound behind a great engineer. But if that were simply all it takes to create this magnificent sound then any schlub off the street can grab an instrument, hit the nearest studio and voila'! An overnight sensation!

There's way too many factors here than the simplicities he tries to sell. Proof positive? If it doesn't matter in the end what amp your using in the room, then how come he has a plethora of them himself? Why not just go total digital modeling?
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I say skip everything and go right to Orange, SS or tube, thats all I am saying..:D
 
Clockworkmike said:
My beef with this whole thing and people like Jim Lill in general is this: the argument that it doesn't matter what amp you use because in the end, as audio mixing and preamps will be what changes the sound is simply bogus.

Why do I say this? Simple: then how come every other band sounds different and what about recordings BEFORE massive technological advancements in mixing? Yeah absolutely mixing changes the sound and you can hide a lot of slop and crappy sound behind a great engineer. But if that were simply all it takes to create this magnificent sound then any schlub off the street can grab an instrument, hit the nearest studio and voila'! An overnight sensation!

There's way too many factors here than the simplicities he tries to sell. Proof positive? If it doesn't matter in the end what amp your using in the room, then how come he has a plethora of them himself? Why not just go total digital modeling?
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Some peolple just make the wrong decisions..:D
 
Session 5 said:
I say skip everything and go right to Orange, SS or tube, thats all I am saying..:D
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Ha!

Personally, I live in that state of bliss where I can genuinely enjoy whatever!

If somebody wants to go into all the details and nuances of a tube amp, I can truly enjoy that and be intrigued with it all.

I can do the same for a quality solid state amp.

And, I can get all down in the weeds with someone about modelers and software and IRs and all that.

None of this has to be an "either...or" situation. A person does not have to pick sides.

Just enjoy the music!
 
ibmorjamn said:
He is very detailed but just can't get through half of the video.
He is leading to mic and sm57 is one many use plus all the high end studio umobtainium.
There is a lot to it, distance , mic, room, recording console, preamp in console, pickups, cabinet, speaker and the actual player and engineer recording technique.
I just watched a cover band from. Australia do a pretty damn convincing
" Runnin with the Devil"
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Don't think that Jim is claiming that you have to do all of that to get a good sound. The point is, to know what the audience hears, you need to listen to what the audience hears. If you want to know what a recording sounds like, you need to listen to the recording.

If you gig with your amp and don't run it through a mix, then, yes, in that case, listen to the amp. But, if you mic your amp, listen to what it sounds like coming through the entire signal chain...whatever that may be in your case...and then you have a greater sense of what the audience hears.

This, incidentally, is one reason I don't obsess over the "responsiveness" of the amp. I understand what that means, but it could be misleading. As the player, a person could experience some type of responsiveness, and subconsciously translate that to an interpretation of the sound. But, the audience is not experiencing any responsiveness the player feels. They just hear a sound. So, intercepting that responsiveness with the actual signal chain to be used, or a reasonable facsimile of it, may actually allow a player to be a better, more impartial judge of the sound being produced.

Just a thought...
 
Astral Traveler said:
I think we can add to that by saying that; chasing tone by acquiring the same gear our heroes use is futile, because that’s not the sound we hear when listening to a recording.
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Agreed completely. I would add/alter that last bit to: …because that’s not *entirely* the sound we hear when listening to a recording.

smitty_p said:
^^^^This.

I recall reading an article online many years ago. Unfortunately, I have not been able to relocate it. Anyway, it was an interview with Yngwie Malmsteen and he was describing how he would set up his gear in his home studio for creating sounds, etc.

He did this very thing. He kept his amp head and effects in the studio, but the speaker cabinet was located outside the studio in a sound-proof room. He would mic the cabinet in that room and run the mic back to the sound board in the studio. That way, he was hearing over his studio monitors a sound that was more like what an audience would hear (not identical, of course, but closer) than if he just listened directly to an amplifier.
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We see many demo/reviewers doing this in their videos. They may be demoing an amp or effect unit, and you see the amp on the shelf in the control room, but it may be feeding a speaker cabinet, or emulator, and on into their mixer and mixing gear…and finally into their interface, and software. Sound shaping tools available all along the way. Pete Thorn comes to mind for someone that does this regularly, and sounds great doing so.
 
On stage both my guitar amps use a pair of Senheiser e906 my sound man recommended them sounds great through the mains
been recording with a AKG C12VR large tube condenser microphone 5' from my amps just set the level on my recorder no EQ
a rich girl friend gave me the AKG I would never spend $7,000.00 on a microphone sounds exact on my ODS amps.

As far as the video I have a EF86 Vox AC15 and a Tweed Dumble Deluxe they sound nothing alike
 
Astral Traveler said:
I think we can add to that by saying that; chasing tone by acquiring the same gear our heroes use is futile, because that’s not the sound we hear when listening to a recording.
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so many times I've heard about recording sessions where a big player uses some random gear that is no where near what they usually play on stage or endorse. It's laughable.
 
Astral Traveler said:
I think we can add to that by saying that; chasing tone by acquiring the same gear our heroes use is futile, because that’s not the sound we hear when listening to a recording.
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I think it's a fool's errand, to go out and buy up gear that your favorite guitarist has to try to replicate their sound. Sure, you can get close but there's always that X Factor you will be missing: you simply aren't them lol Style goes a loooong way

To my knowledge, I don't think anything I have could perfectly match someone else's gear ( if so it's purely coincidental). What I DO have is stuff I found that sounded great to me and then toyed with it until I got a sound that at least my ears could take lol
 
@Ghostman What if I don’t use a pick?

THIS will not be tolerated Mr. ....Mr. Buckingham!

:D

jk

Ghostman said:
so many times I've heard about recording sessions where a big player uses some random gear that is no where near what they usually play on stage or endorse. It's laughable.
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Or ostentatious people spend a million on fancy sound conditioning rooms, then you see "Inside the Sessions with ..." some pro, and all they have is a blanket hanging behind the artist and behind that looks like a old half insulated bathroom/control room with rumors that it was haunted.
 
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smitty_p said:
Ha!

Personally, I live in that state of bliss where I can genuinely enjoy whatever!

If somebody wants to go into all the details and nuances of a tube amp, I can truly enjoy that and be intrigued with it all.

I can do the same for a quality solid state amp.

And, I can get all down in the weeds with someone about modelers and software and IRs and all that.

None of this has to be an "either...or" situation. A person does not have to pick sides.

Just enjoy the music!
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I agree, modelers are simple tools. Built in interface, amp sims, IR's.
Simple to record and a lot of people hardly notice a difference.
 
ibmorjamn said:
I agree, modelers are simple tools. Built in interface, amp sims, IR's.
Simple to record and a lot of people hardly notice a difference.
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I'll say that with modern overdrive I can really tell no difference. It's when you get into the snappy twangy bluesy tube tones that they fall apart. As soon as they start twanging on the G string is becomes pretty obvious.

I've got AmpRoom with several Marshalls and a bunch of others. This technology is still in it's infancy IMO.

Now on the other hand, being into mastering not long ago I bought a lot of the Plugin Alliance, FabFilter, Softube, etc. plugins, and those are fantastic. Especially the Weis suite of plugs - heavenly. I think these are very advanced and any improvement would not be in any way significant in the future. I can't think of what they could do to make people buy them all again. They are already way too awesome.
 
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Its interesting, having spent so long in the session world, that i have begun to develop a much better understanding of how certain sounds are created for a given musical project, although i am certainly no expert.

Its fascinating, to me, to see how certain, somewhat unusual methods are employed to achieve a particular sound.

During a recording session in 2011, the producer i was working with kept moving the amp and mikes around, trying to get something that he was listening for.

Ultimately, we put my Marshall combo amp in a red velour, curved-back chair, with the speaker facing the cushion, and the mike dangled in between the amp and chair back.

On another occasion, in 2012, i was living and working in Miami Florida and i was hired for a latin music project funded by Sony Latin. We recorded part of the project at Bay Eight Miami and finalized the project at Studio Center in Hialeah.

I played a half dozen acoustic guitars before the production team was happy with the tone. This involved multiple mike and room changes and ecmven where i was seated in the room changed several times. The electric guitars and amps used were also heavily scrutinized by the production team.

But, when playing live, i feel that all of this is totally unnecessary, overtly time consuming and detracts from the energy of a live performance.

I used to disagrre with this premise, but its an opinion i developed working with various producers through the years, so its not something that i arrived at on my own.
 
Inspector #20 said:
Its interesting, having spent so long in the session world, that i have begun to develop a much better understanding of how certain sounds are created for a given musical project, although i am certainly no expert.

Its fascinating, to me, to see how certain, somewhat unusual methods are employed to achieve a particular sound.

During a recording session in 2011, the producer i was working with kept moving the amp and mikes around, trying to get something that he was listening for.

Ultimately, we put my Marshall combo amp in a red velour, curved-back chair, with the speaker facing the cushion, and the mike dangled in between the amp and chair back.

On another occasion, in 2012, i was living and working in Miami Florida and i was hired for a latin music project funded by Sony Latin. We recorded part of the project at Bay Eight Miami and finalized the project at Studio Center in Hialeah.

I played a half dozen acoustic guitars before the production team was happy with the tone. This involved multiple mike and room changes and ecmven where i was seated in the room changed several times. The electric guitars and amps used were also heavily scrutinized by the production team.

But, when playing live, i feel that all of this is totally unnecessary, overtly time consuming and detracts from the energy of a live performance.

I used to disagrre with this premise, but its an opinion i developed working with various producers through the years, so its not something that i arrived at on my own.
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Must be why so many people go after live recorded performance tones. Much easier than trying to figure out what color chair to put the amp in . Lol

Even live recordings vary from venue to venue. The same guy running the same mixing board or different board.
Different years, more modern gear.
 
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