Astral Traveler
Ambassador of Both Time and Space
Jim Lill makes some valid arguments
- Thread starter Astral Traveler
- Start date
I enjoyed this video even more that the last one that he put out.
It has been a hot topic in another “Jim Lill” thread Located here
Heated up a bit in places though.
jtcnj
Ambassador of the Crossroad
Interesting.
I get the mic'd vs. in the room thing, but the DI thing (to me, I don't have studio experience) negates the "feel" of a cranked tube amp that is worked by a skilled guitarist through pick attack.
I suppose the DI pre-amp can be set into break up with attack, but I would think you lose the immediate mental feedback (not feedback sound) you get from hearing that "feel" as you play.
Headphones always seem "small" to me.
I think I am over thinking this.
Going to play some acoustic unplugged guitar now....
I get the mic'd vs. in the room thing, but the DI thing (to me, I don't have studio experience) negates the "feel" of a cranked tube amp that is worked by a skilled guitarist through pick attack.
I suppose the DI pre-amp can be set into break up with attack, but I would think you lose the immediate mental feedback (not feedback sound) you get from hearing that "feel" as you play.
Headphones always seem "small" to me.
I think I am over thinking this.
Going to play some acoustic unplugged guitar now....
OP
Astral Traveler
Ambassador of Both Time and Space
It’s a matter who you are playing for. Most people hearing your music won’t get cranked tube amp feel anyway. Even if you play in a bar using the sound directly from a 2x12, most people wouldn’t know the difference.
That may have been true of older systems, but newer VSTs and processors do a pretty good job of capturing those aspects, as well.
I was creating a new patch yesterday in Bias FX2 on my iPad. I was playing around with how much gain to use for the amp model I was using. That’s when I noticed that the level of gain and overdrive I was hearing from the patch was being affected by how hard I ”dug” into the strings and how I attacked it - pretty much like I experience with my tube amps.
What‘s more, manufacturers are starting to use AI and machine learning when developing these systems. The negative points that used to apply are already non-issues in many cases and, I predict, will be totally irrelevant in just a few years time.
For an example of an out-dated objection, people who still like to talk about how tubes create even order harmonics and solid state creates odd order harmonics demonstrate how dramatically out of touch they are with the current state of development. Literally, none of that is an issue today with the modern DSP technology. It may still apply to cheap SS amps. But, the higher end modelers, profilers, and software are in a completely different universe. It’s an apples to walnuts comparison.
Even from a full stack, @Astral Traveler
Once the band kicks in, all those lovely subtleties you heard at home vanish completely...
Sapient
Ambassador of Vocal Inspiration
With today's music yes, because we are so far accustomed to highly compressed digital music. To say we wouldn't notice in the old vinyl days and to say this now are two different things.
2c
OP
Astral Traveler
Ambassador of Both Time and Space
I have to disagree, digitizing (as in putting music on a digital medium) music isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I love Vinyl, and I regularly listen to old records even today, but as far as medium for distributing high quality music, vinyl is pretty bad. At least in comparison to more modern alternatives.
Yes, there are plenty of examples of music on vinyl that sounds better than music on CD, but it usually has more to do with how it was mastered. Putting music mastered for vinyl on a CD, as was often done, is a recipe for a sub standard listening experience. Imperfections in a recording can also make the music feel more organic and human, and vinyl is full of inherent flaws.
In the end we’re really talking about two different things: which sounds better, and which actually is better. One is subjective, the other can be measured and quantified. If we measure and quantify, digital beats analog (vinyl) hands down. I still like listening to old records though.
To tie it back to amps and guitars: no, the subtleties aren’t lost just because the music is digitally recorded.
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I agree with you on this point.
My comment is 100% related to the sound of an amp during a live performance.
Its not because we have become accustomed to compression, its the ability of the human ear to discerne subtleties in a noisy environment.
All the subtle nuances that people sit in their bedroom, and strain to hear, vaporizes once the band kicks in.
I used to disagree with this, until one of our producers invited me to a live event he was recording at The Forum. What he demonstrated to me that night was unbelievable, and i stopped chasing the minor details and focused more on just playing.
Now, on the other hand, many will say that we are wrong to suggest this and that anyone wanting to spend money in pursuit of even the most mininuscule nuance should be encouraged to do so without caution.
Here's my answer to this.
If there's a rattlesnake, coiled up in a defensive posture, and you tell me that you are going to pet it....i will tell you that it's probably not going to end well...
But, its your choice to do it, so go ahead and pet the snake.
But a lot of guys seem to take pride in misleading people.
I know a local player who works 5 nights a week. He had a very nice, 1961 Gibson SG Re-Issue. He came to me with a list of mods he wanted that were suggested to him by another local player.
I looked at these mods and told him directly, "This is not going to produce the changes that you are being told it will. You'll never hear the difference in a live performance."
I felt so strongly about this that i politely declined to do the work, and he took the guitar to a hot-shot tech in Pomona.
A few weeks later, we ran into each other at a restaurant in Redlands. The discussion soon turned to his Gibson SG.
He said, "Man, you were right. This other Kat promised me the moon and over $1,500 later, i don't hear a positive difference, just a negative change, so i was gonna ask you if you would swap everything back for me..."
Which i did for free.
I'd rather be known for being this kind of guy....
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Honestly, it doesn't even have to be a noisy environment. The band doesn't even need to kick in. Many of the subtleties we strain to hear on a set of headphones become miniscule to the point of irrelevance after about 5-10 seconds of silence.
Here's a quiz:
What doesn't sound like a JCM-800?
Answer:
Another JCM-800.
Seriously, I started to take all the naysaying about modern modelling and digital technology a lot less seriously when I would read about people lamenting about how they let "that one" perfect amp and cabinet slip away and they haven't been able to find another that sounds as good.
So, that made me think. I thought, if two tube amps of the same, make, model, and year can't be depended on to sound exactly the same, why should I care if the amp model in my processor doesn't sound exactly like a particular amplifier? It's entirely possible that someone else's physical amp will actually sound like less of a match than the model in my processor.
That's why I don't really worry anymore about how a sound is made. I just care about the sound itself. I'm totally cool with someone using a physical amp, cabinet, and effects pedals, and I'm cool with someone using software. No big whoop either way.
Clockworkmike
Ambassador of STACKS in WV SHACKS
My beef with this whole thing and people like Jim Lill in general is this: the argument that it doesn't matter what amp you use because in the end, as audio mixing and preamps will be what changes the sound is simply bogus.
Why do I say this? Simple: then how come every other band sounds different and what about recordings BEFORE massive technological advancements in mixing? Yeah absolutely mixing changes the sound and you can hide a lot of slop and crappy sound behind a great engineer. But if that were simply all it takes to create this magnificent sound then any schlub off the street can grab an instrument, hit the nearest studio and voila'! An overnight sensation!
There's way too many factors here than the simplicities he tries to sell. Proof positive? If it doesn't matter in the end what amp your using in the room, then how come he has a plethora of them himself? Why not just go total digital modeling?
Why do I say this? Simple: then how come every other band sounds different and what about recordings BEFORE massive technological advancements in mixing? Yeah absolutely mixing changes the sound and you can hide a lot of slop and crappy sound behind a great engineer. But if that were simply all it takes to create this magnificent sound then any schlub off the street can grab an instrument, hit the nearest studio and voila'! An overnight sensation!
There's way too many factors here than the simplicities he tries to sell. Proof positive? If it doesn't matter in the end what amp your using in the room, then how come he has a plethora of them himself? Why not just go total digital modeling?
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Ghostman
Ambassador of the SuperNatural
I don't think he was trying to imply that your amp doesn't matter. The point I took from this, and whole-heartedly agree with, is that if you want to dial in your amp to share with others in any capacity, you need to listen to the end of the signal chain, not pay attention to what's in the room.
OP
Astral Traveler
Ambassador of Both Time and Space
Nope. Because tone is in the hands
OP
Astral Traveler
Ambassador of Both Time and Space
I think we can add to that by saying that; chasing tone by acquiring the same gear our heroes use is futile, because that’s not the sound we hear when listening to a recording.
ibmorjamn
Ambassador of Moar Jammin
He is very detailed but just can't get through half of the video.
He is leading to mic and sm57 is one many use plus all the high end studio umobtainium.
There is a lot to it, distance , mic, room, recording console, preamp in console, pickups, cabinet, speaker and the actual player and engineer recording technique.
I just watched a cover band from. Australia do a pretty damn convincing
" Runnin with the Devil"
He is leading to mic and sm57 is one many use plus all the high end studio umobtainium.
There is a lot to it, distance , mic, room, recording console, preamp in console, pickups, cabinet, speaker and the actual player and engineer recording technique.
I just watched a cover band from. Australia do a pretty damn convincing
" Runnin with the Devil"
^^^^This.
I recall reading an article online many years ago. Unfortunately, I have not been able to relocate it. Anyway, it was an interview with Yngwie Malmsteen and he was describing how he would set up his gear in his home studio for creating sounds, etc.
He did this very thing. He kept his amp head and effects in the studio, but the speaker cabinet was located outside the studio in a sound-proof room. He would mic the cabinet in that room and run the mic back to the sound board in the studio. That way, he was hearing over his studio monitors a sound that was more like what an audience would hear (not identical, of course, but closer) than if he just listened directly to an amplifier.
Sapient
Ambassador of Vocal Inspiration
