Intonation strategies

RVA

RVA

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I am sure many know that some folks intonate guitars by playing an open string and the 12th fret harmonic, while some match the open string to a fretted 12th fret.

One rational I have seen for a fretted 12th note preference is that since that is how you will be playing, that is how it should be set.

So I set out to see what difference, if any, there was between a fretted and harmonic 12th fret once intonation was achieved in one of these aspects - ie intonate using the harmonic and check the difference in the fretted note, and vice versa.

Then, applying the same logic, I ran into the question of where to fret the 12th fret. If the rational is that you should intonate based on where you play, and the proper place to play a note is just prior to the next fret wire (ie toward the pickup side of any given fret), isn't this where you should fret the note when intonating?

What say you all?
 
The 12th fret harmonic should match the open string, it's the same note. the harmonic needs to match the fretted note to be correctly intonated.
 
Where you fret should be a non issue.
Wherever you fret the note the string will rest on the next highest fret if the guitar is set up properly.
Did that make any sense at all?
I'll try again.
For example, if you fret a note anywhere between the 11th and 12th fret, the string should lay on the 12th fret.

If the note is sharp of the harmonic, you lengthen the string.
Yes?
No?
Maybe?
This game is called "follow the meter"
 
Ghostwolf said:
The 12th fret harmonic should match the open string, it's the same note. the harmonic needs to match the fretted note to be correctly intonated.
Click to expand...
Some people use a fretted note, one reson being the one stated above, which I think I agree with.
 
Tony M. said:
Where you fret should be a non issue.
Wherever you fret the note the string will rest on the next highest fret if the guitar is set up properly.
Did that make any sense at all?
I'll try again.
For example, if you fret a note anywhere between the 11th and 12th fret, the string should lay on the 12th fret.

If the note is sharp of the harmonic, you lengthen the string.
Yes?
No?
Maybe?
This game is called "follow the meter"
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. As you know, with taller frets, it is possible to apply too much presure and go sharp. This is why heavy handed players should use "low rise" frets. Using this principle, I would think that more pressure would be applied as you move closer to the next highest fret wire, an effect which will increase the taller the fret is.

Don't you play notes and chords by moving closer to the next highest fret rather than placing your finger in the middle of the fret? If so, why?
 
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I try to find a happy balance between all three, open, harmonic, and fretted. If I can’t get all three the same I’ll settle for the fretted being a little flat, but very little. I fret very lightly very close behind the fret when measuring. I figure I’m more likely to pull the notes sharp when playing so I err on the flat side if I have to err.
 
RVA said:
Don't you play notes and chords by moving closer to the next highest fret rather than placing your finger in the middle of the fret? If so, why?
Click to expand...

Depends on the fingering of the chord and the geometry of whatever part I am playing.
My playing is very far away from being any kind of precise. It's more like borderline sloppy.

:eek:
 
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Tony M. said:
Depends on the fingering of the chord and the geometry of whatever part I am playing.
My playing is very far away from being any kind of precise. It's more like borderline sloppy.

:eek:
Click to expand...
I can relate, being self taught. There are degrees of sloppy though, and I am sure yours sounds better than mine. Then there is JP, who made sloppy a career move.
 
Kerry Brown said:
I try to find a happy balance between all three, open, harmonic, and fretted. If I can’t get all three the same I’ll settle for the fretted being a little flat, but very little. I fret very lightly very close behind the fret when measuring. I figure I’m more likely to pull the notes sharp when playing so I err on the flat side if I have to err.
Click to expand...
Very well thought out. Maybe this is not to be resolved, but rather balanced.
 
Ghostwolf said:
The 12th fret harmonic should match the open string, it's the same note. the harmonic needs to match the fretted note to be correctly intonated.
Click to expand...

I do check the 12th fret intonation, but I find the 3rd, 5th and 7th fret intonation to be even more critical to ensuring good tonality.

On only a few guitars, intonation will be mathematically perfect at virtually all positions. On most guitars, "correct" intonation is the best average at all positions.
 
Robert Herndon said:
I do check the 12th fret intonation, but I find the 3rd, 5th and 7th fret intonation to be even more critical to ensuring good tonality.

On only a few guitars, intonation will be mathematically perfect at virtually all positions. On most guitars, "correct" intonation is the best average at all positions.
Click to expand...
And where do you fret the note when doing so? Middle of the fret or toward the far wire side?
 
Robert Herndon said:
I do check the 12th fret intonation, but I find the 3rd, 5th and 7th fret intonation to be even more critical to ensuring good tonality.

On only a few guitars, intonation will be mathematically perfect at virtually all positions. On most guitars, "correct" intonation is the best average at all positions.
Click to expand...
That is a very important observation. Intonation is not just at the 12th fret. You can have a guitar that intonates perfectly at the 12th fret but is horribly sharp at the first few frets because the nut is cut wrong. Too much or relief can affect the intonation at the middle frets. I watched a very, very good luthier intonate one of my guitars. With every string he checked frets all up and down the neck then made very small adjustments. After each adjustment he would quickly recheck the strings he'd already done. It was a very iterative process. He also got everything right with the guitar on the bench, then he did it again holding the guitar in a playing position. It was a lesson in patience but that guitar is perfectly intonated even a year and a half and a few string changes since.
 
Kerry Brown said:
That is a very important observation. Intonation is not just at the 12th fret. You can have a guitar that intonates perfectly at the 12th fret but is horribly sharp at the first few frets because the nut is cut wrong. Too much or relief can affect the intonation at the middle frets. I watched a very, very good luthier intonate one of my guitars. With every string he checked frets all up and down the neck then made very small adjustments. After each adjustment he would quickly recheck the strings he'd already done. It was a very iterative process. He also got everything right with the guitar on the bench, then he did it again holding the guitar in a playing position. It was a lesson in patience but that guitar is perfectly intonated even a year and a half and a few string changes since.
Click to expand...

Exactly!
 
Fretted. But, I don’t fret too much about intonation TBH (sorry for the pun). I just use my little Boss chromatic tuner and get it as close as that will allow. I’m playing rock and usually bending strings when choking the neck so close enough is fine by me. Time spent obsessing about intonation is time not playing.
 
gball said:
Fretted. But, I don’t fret too much about intonation TBH (sorry for the pun). I just use my little Boss chromatic tuner and get it as close as that will allow. I’m playing rock and usually bending strings when choking the neck so close enough is fine by me. Time spent obsessing about intonation is time not playing.
Click to expand...

Good points. For me, I play lots of triads and open chords or derivatives, such as the A muted C-Clamp G, with heavy gain. Any anomaly with intonation is amplified with these chords.

Also, on songs like Volbeat's Seal The Deal, and Scorpions' Big City Nights, where you are using root/5th chords high up the neck, inaccurate intonation will produce wild audible oscillations.

Once I get it set, I never have to revisit the procedure.

My Doublneck was expertly intonated. Only guitar I've ever had that didn't require full setup.
 
For me, it has to be a compromise between the harmonics of the 12th and fretted notes in the first 3 frets. I'm very heavy handed... bull in a china shop! I love my cowboy/open chords. A slight mis-intonation at the 12th does not bother me as much as a slight mis-intonation with open chords.
 
RVA said:
Some people use a fretted note, one reson being the one stated above, which I think I agree with.
Click to expand...

That’s what Ghostwolf is saying. But, instead of comparing the open string to the fretted note, he is saying to match the 12th fret harmonic to the fretted note.

For me, I use the fretted note, too. Also, to Don’s point, I not only fret where I’m going to play, but how I’m going to play. I don’t put a death grip on my strings, but I don’t have a super light touch, either. Though, the more I play, the lighter my touch gets.
 
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