Intonation strategies

gasket said:
Midnight now, I almost understand, not at my sharpest this time of night. Will digest that early in morning. Thanks for comment, I'm sure it's straight forward. A little here and a little there all educating Gasket the late starter.
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Picture it this way. When the string is a bit stiff, it doesn't vibrate all the way up to the saddle. There's a little bit at each end that stays still. This is called end effect. So you have to make the string longer in order for the vibrating part to be the right length.
 
I was skim reading about 1/3 the way through the initial posts and then my mind logically wondered about the impact string gauges have on intonation. Then like magic, it got addressed.

Now I have another question and wonder how I may address it in my own tuning vs the tuning of a friend who must use a tuning fork to tune because he is blind.

My Clip on tuner as well as my integral tuner on my Fender acoustic tune really close to one another and yet whenever my friend picks up one of my guitars, he re-tunes them by fork and his ear. I usually let him tweak to his liking while he plays my guitars, but then will re-tune after taking him home. Usually I think he winds up tuning flat vs my tuners.

On a side note, I have listened to various online teachers and sometimes when I listen to the sound/tone/tuning of them vs me, my ears also hear my playing as not matching them as well. I often wonder if my ears are off or it is a matter of live sound vs sound transmitted through speakers etc. Uggh
 
Ever listened to Arabic music? The tuning is completely different. A few hundred years ago, before equal temperament, it would have sounded normal. What we call "in tune" is in fact out of tune for every note except the octave, but doing this allows it to sound the same (equally out of tune) in every key, so we are mentally tuned into it.

Your friend just has a slightly different version of correct. As for live vs reproduced, probably the live stuff is a lot louder. That pushes the perceived pitch high and makes us tune down a bit. So softer instruments get tuned sharper than loud ones. Then absolute pitch messes it up further. High notes tend to sound flat when they are correct, and low notes sound sharp. So pianos use "stretched tuning". The top end is tuned sharp, and the bass strings are tuned flat, just to make it sound in tune the whole way up.

This really is a whole can of worms, and there is no such thing as correct, no matter what that Boss pedal says.
 
Thanks, Don. I think you hit the nail on the head as far as my live tuning/playing a riff,lick, note etc vs recorded versions.
If memory serves me correctly, I hear recorded notes up higher on the neck and then view the actual artist play it. I often find them up closer to the nut instead.
This is one reason I think I often struggled to learn a song by ear from my teen years thru my current ones. I often hear the song but can never find it on the neck unless I see it done.
 
This is an interesting video I discovered last week. It initially addresses tuning, but he also talks a bit about what @DonP mentioned in post #43.

(BTW, this guy's name is Martin Taylor. How cool is it that a guitarist's name has BOTH the names "Martin" and "Taylor"!)

 
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He's trying to cover a year's worth of knowledge in ten minutes. He's not doing a bad job of it, either.
 
Great video find, Smitty. After reading this thread and all the replies and now this video it is no wonder I feel like guitar grabbed me like a drug I was never able to kick despite giving it up a couple times.
Not only is it one of the most awesome musical instruments, but there are so many technical aspects that challenge my mind as well. A life long challenge keeps us ALIVE.

Now regarding this video, I had also heard a mention regarding the lower strings E A,, about playing them quietly or loudly.
The part about flattening slightly.

In case you guys haven't listened to this video with good headphones. I will say "BOY do his notes sound sweet when played" His finger tone and guitar tone sound really really nice.
 
He's using the piano trick I mentioned - stretching the tuning so the bass is lower and the treble higher. Have to say, though, that is a sweet sounding guitar he has.
 
DonP said:
He's using the piano trick I mentioned - stretching the tuning so the bass is lower and the treble higher. Have to say, though, that is a sweet sounding guitar he has.
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This James Taylor video makes me think I see why my friend's tuning appears to be flat according to my tuners. It is quite possible his tuning fork sets him minus 10ish and he goes from there and all notes are indeed MINUS according to my tuners but sound right to him. I finally see the rationale.

 
DonP said:
He's trying to cover a year's worth of knowledge in ten minutes. He's not doing a bad job of it, either.
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I understand what he's saying. I've observed similar things personally, where the guitar will sound good, but will be slightly out of tune to the tuner.

But, I'll admit that I've never tried to compensate by using stretch tuning in a band setting. I've always stuck with what the tuner said, because that's how everyone else is tuning, too. My assumption is that if I compensate by using stretch tuning, I will be out of tune with the rest of the band. I'd love to give it a shot, though.
 
smitty_p said:
I understand what he's saying. I've observed similar things personally, where the guitar will sound good, but will be slightly out of tune to the tuner.

But, I'll admit that I've never tried to compensate by using stretch tuning in a band setting. I've always stuck with what the tuner said, because that's how everyone else is tuning, too. My assumption is that if I compensate by using stretch tuning, I will be out of tune with the rest of the band. I'd love to give it a shot, though.
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Nobody will know when it gets loud - except you, and that's fine.
 
DonP said:
Nobody will know when it gets loud - except you, and that's fine.
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I think I would agree with Don here, smitty. Also I might add, maybe one would notice if it was in a soft acoustic setting with 2 guitars and such. I'd say then, just have both guys tune to each other at whatever method you agree on and both will sound as it should.
 
The very best choirs - I'm talking about the likes of King's College Cambridge here - use tuning on-the-fly. If they are singing an A as part of an A chord, it will be pitched differently than if it is part of a D chord. Only a few cents, but enough to make their choral singing particularly melodic - they don't have to put up with the equal temperament compromises.
 
chilipeppermaniac said:
I think I would agree with Don here, smitty. Also I might add, maybe one would notice if it was in a soft acoustic setting with 2 guitars and such. I'd say then, just have both guys tune to each other at whatever method you agree on and both will sound as it should.
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I think it will be cool. The band leader has his degree in music and should have no issues with me trying, especially if I tell him about my experiment beforehand.
 
smitty_p said:
I think it will be cool. The band leader has his degree in music and should have no issues with me trying, especially if I tell him about my experiment beforehand.
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Don't tell him. He'll be standing there thinking "Wow, Smitty's in tune for a change. Now if I can just persuade the rest of them...."
 
DonP said:
Picture it this way. When the string is a bit stiff, it doesn't vibrate all the way up to the saddle. There's a little bit at each end that stays still. This is called end effect. So you have to make the string longer in order for the vibrating part to be the right length.
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Aha! Good explanation. So, are the vibrating part of the different strings the exact same length?
 
Gahr said:
Aha! Good explanation. So, are the vibrating part of the different strings the exact same length?
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Yes, they are. If you look at the way bridge saddles align on a well intonated guitar you will see that the string gets longer as the note gets deeper. Take away the end effect part of the string, and they are all the same length.
 
DonP said:
Yes, they are. If you look at the way bridge saddles align on a well intonated guitar you will see that the string gets longer as the note gets deeper. Take away the end effect part of the string, and they are all the same length.
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And the end effect is the same at both ends of the string?
 
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