How to destroy a amp

[SIx String Chef]

I don't read all that into it. I love music, but it's also my only source of income, so regardless of what I may like (or love) at the end of the day, I'm "on-board" with whatever makes me a good living.

I've worked in the capacity of both engineer and producer, so I "get" the practice of streamlining methodologies in a recording environment.

I want to ask this question honestly, because it might help you better understand how I see things.

Can you imagine the pressure of being told that you have been put in charge of a 10 hour block of studio time, that someone is paying $3,000.00 for, and you are expected to ensure that a quality product is produced within the slotted time frame???

In that context, I could care less about flase nuances, or the voice of a particular tube, or all other manner of hocus-pocus that 'might' produce a subtlety that 'might' make it onto digital medium.

Now, having said that...I have worked on projects where we spent an entire studio "day" swapping out cabinets and changing microphone placement because the artist had "Carte Blanche" and the bankroll was unlimited.

On the same hand, I've seen guys like Joe B produce an absolutely glorious tone with a vintage Les Paul and a Blackface, only to see a guy on YouTube match it, note for note, nuance for nuance (and in some cases even more organic sounding) with Axe-FX.

I DO totally understand it, Robert... please don't get me wrong. I have also been a party on both sides of that "conceptual equation", both during my time in radio back in the old country, as well as nowadays in my role being in charge of developing a food product and seeing it through mass production all the way to the customer... On a deadline and on budget, regardless that traditional recipe subtleties and nuances that I know will elevate such product immensely may suffer from it!

I definitely understand the pressure you've experienced. Lived it pretty much every day of my different "professional lives", in one capacity or another. Not only been on the receiving end, but also had to make a lot of hard decisions based on the ruthless need to meet cold hard goals and targets set upstairs. But I always try to meet the party affected somewhere as close to the middle as possible. And yes, I agree: WHENEVER possible.

My rant/beef here has much more to do, I believe, with the greater "principle" of the practice itself as a whole, rather than with the participants as individuals themselves. Especially when such "practice" is absolutely stripped and devoid of even the bare minimum of humanity, empathy and dignity towards the other party (the artist / creative talent) from the very get-go... The systemically exploitative character of it at every step.

I lean towards a "I don't (necessarily) hate the player, but I do hate the game" stance. Always seen myself as a bit of a "capitalidealist"... trying to stride both sides of the fence while coaxing the "better angels" from each. If that makes sense...

 

[SIx String Chef]

Speaking of Kenny Wayne Shepherd I let him play with my band in 1992 kid was good his mom was smoking hot
I let him play my 1961 Strat two black face Fender twins boss CE2 and a tube driver Kenny said that was his dream guitar
Next my friend Mark worked on Kenny's Dumble modified Fender Tweed Deluxe amp Mark sent me a layout with voltage chart
sounds like a amp should sound Kenny Wayne Shepherd reveals his onstage Fender amps are actually Dumbles in disguise

As far as Marshall amps go I still own five 1967 to 1971 they sound fine stock My Park 75 Marshall I replaced the 32uf Hunts capacitors with 47uf F & T
devalued the amp by $1000.00 a little thing like a replaced transformer can devalue a amp by 50%

View attachment 74203

Question, Plexi: That devaluation happens even if the replacement is because of a strict repair? If so, would the repair have to be made using a brand/period appropriate component to maintain value?

 

[Amp Mad Scientist]

Is this guy for real ?? or are people tone deaf ?? just asking
Example of my work no it's not a kit build. I'm not selling anything eater.

View attachment 74147

At least this time, he sort of drew a schematic... sort of.

 

[Amp Mad Scientist]

Question, Plexi: That devaluation happens even if the replacement is because of a strict repair? If so, would the repair have to be made using a brand/period appropriate component to maintain value?

It really depends on if the amp is original or reissue.
Obviously if an amp is modified it won't be built with period correct parts...

 

[old rocker]

Well to answer the original question "is this guy for real" i'm only an amateur (pub level) very vintage(old) Guitar player, i'm definitely not an Amp tech, but i have done one his DIY mods on my ORI50C & the difference in my Guitar sound(stage) is immense, i have never heard a bigger single step improvement (Amp to Amp) in my gear ever, so to me "yes the guy is for real", but it is fair to point out that i don't get reverential about old or Vintage gear. .

 

[Inspector #20]

Well to answer the original question "is this guy for real" i'm only an amateur (pub level) very vintage(old) Guitar player, i'm definitely not an Amp tech, but i have done one his DIY mods on my ORI50C & the difference in my Guitar sound(stage) is immense, i have never heard a bigger single step improvement (Amp to Amp) in my gear ever, so to me "yes the guy is for real", but it is fair to point out that i don't get reverential about old or Vintage gear. .

Exactly how I feel about the Greg/Ivan Modified Headfirst Mod on my Origin 50H. Night and day improvement.

 

[67plexi]

I got it why new production amps sound so harsh to me not musical sterile
Answer metal film resistors and the SMD resistors have to be the worst not good for the signal path
the best sounding Marshall amps used Iskra carbon film resistors sweet warm and musical
example 1968 Super Lead 100 you can tell he is just using a camera mic it peaks out oh well still shines through

 

[Inspector #20]

I got it why new production amps sound so harsh to me not musical sterile
Answer metal film resistors and the SMD resistors have to be the worst not good for the signal path
the best sounding Marshall amps used Iskra carbon film resistors sweet warm and musical
example 1968 Super Lead 100 you can tell he is just using a camera mic it peaks out oh well still shines through

I only find that resistance matters when dealing with resistors and capacitance with capacitors.

There are several videos where they demo numerous combinations with no differences in tone.

But, perception is reality...

 

[gball]

I got it why new production amps sound so harsh to me not musical sterile
Answer metal film resistors and the SMD resistors have to be the worst not good for the signal path
the best sounding Marshall amps used Iskra carbon film resistors sweet warm and musical
example 1968 Super Lead 100 you can tell he is just using a camera mic it peaks out oh well still shines through

Lordy, that thing sounds like the voice of god with a Les Paul plugged into it.

Mad props to the guy for peeling off 'Nasty Dogs and Funky Kings' by the way.

 

[old rocker]

Lordy, that thing sounds like the voice of god with a Les Paul plugged into it.

Mad props to the guy for peeling off 'Nasty Dogs and Funky Kings' by the way.

Yep it sounds great, but for "any" gigging venue nowadays it's totally useless way way to loud, it's only use is for deafening yourself at home & the best of luck with your neighbours , glorious but a complete dinosaur, now that i think back to when they came out i tried one to replace my AC30 & even in those days it was stupidly loud, this is of course just the opinion of an old guy, so there is that .

 

[Amp Mad Scientist]

Well to answer the original question "is this guy for real" i'm only an amateur (pub level) very vintage(old) Guitar player, i'm definitely not an Amp tech, but i have done one his DIY mods on my ORI50C & the difference in my Guitar sound(stage) is immense, i have never heard a bigger single step improvement (Amp to Amp) in my gear ever, so to me "yes the guy is for real", but it is fair to point out that i don't get reverential about old or Vintage gear. .

It basically starts in the 1960s with modifications to Hendrix amps... Alexander "Dumble started repairing and modifying amplifiers in California in the 1960s, and built the first of his best-known model, the Overdrive Special, in 1972."

There were a number of amp techs in the early 1970s who modified Fender amps...including me.

And it was these all above modifications that Randall Smith copied, to make the Mesa Boogie amps (he "invented it..." )

The "cascade" overdrive circuit is essentially a tube phono preamp used since 1940s...
The "cascode" circuit invented in 1940s...
But actually the master volume control for tube amps appeared in the 1940s...
probably the work of DuKane.

 

[TheToneDig]

A mod is really about having an amp with your tone without needing to add more pedals to it. A classic example is a Hot-Rodded JCM800. Another would be mods changing the power tube type used or another power stage for more wattage. Some artists that use fuzz pedals mod pre-amps to have the fuzz within and an extra dial added. I think for most people either using pedals or waiting for the mod tone within an amp to be manufactured is the way to go. Friedman did mods to Marshall amps. People waited and now he has a line of amps that are basically his modded line. A lot more high gain already come with one channel that is overdriven. In the past mods were more common. Today it seems like a boutique option for your amp so that you have a tone that maybe hasn't been copied or profiled as often. Still, it's amazing what pedals can do. Some blur the line between pedal and pre-amp.

 

[Inspector #20]

A mod is really about having an amp with your tone without needing to add more pedals to it. A classic example is a Hot-Rodded JCM800. Another would be mods changing the power tube type used or another power stage for more wattage. Some artists that use fuzz pedals mod pre-amps to have the fuzz within and an extra dial added. I think for most people either using pedals or waiting for the mod tone within an amp to be manufactured is the way to go. Friedman did mods to Marshall amps. People waited and now he has a line of amps that are basically his modded line. A lot more high gain already come with one channel that is overdriven. In the past mods were more common. Today it seems like a boutique option for your amp so that you have a tone that maybe hasn't been copied or profiled as often. Still, it's amazing what pedals can do. Some blur the line between pedal and pre-amp.

Our studio has a modded JCM800 with an added gain stage and the Ivanberg Origin 50 destroys it on every level. No contest and we've had a bunch of people we invited to plug into both amps and give an opinion, so it's not just me and Greg.

Below is a shot of Rat's Nest Studio's JCM:



I can run my Ivanberg Origin 50 without FX and it sounds great. It sounds exactly like Pete Willis's tone on 'High & Dry.' However, when you hit the Ori50 with my TS-9, it doesn't create 'more gain,' it creates this tight, multi-dimensional effect that has to be heard to be explained. Same when the EQ is kicked on - it's very subtle....same with the chorus. For me to get the sound I want to project means I need FX.

But you really should have been there to hear my Origin 50 running at Greg's lab. It's something you have to hear in person. With the Jose 20 Volt Zener Diode engaged, it produces Super Lead 100 tones, and even with the volume drop, the Ivanberg mod makes the volume knob more reactive - and louder dial position for dial position - so you could NEVER use the volume that's on tap with this amp.

Also, with 6CA7's and good speakers, the "break up" that everyone seems to love (which sounds like nails on a chalkboard to me ears) is totally absent and I have endless headroom, shaper definition and yes..it chugs!!!

Live, I set the master volume on '7' and control the amp's volume through the FX loop with a Boss FV30L Low Impedance Volume Pedal. It's like having a built in attenuator.

One of the things I learned early on is that I liked using chorus all the time. Richie Faulkner is another one how does. In a recent Rig Rundown he said, "My Chorus is on all the time. It's never turned off."

No complaints!!!

 

[Inspector #20]

Yes....I love the sounds of a cranked Marshall, but I have never been able to, save once, crank my amps up to get power tube saturation for a gig.

This 'power tube saturation' is the basis for my live tone...

I use the Boss FV30L in the FX Loop, "HI" power scaling, Master Volume on '7' and amp volume is then controlled by the FV30L.

The Metro style digital FX loop installed into my amp by Greg, is light years ahead of the Marshall tube buffered FX loop.

Before the Ivanberg Mod, I had to run the Master Volume on 8-9 to get anything near overdrive. But after the mod, '7' is much louder than '9' used to be.

 

[Amp Mad Scientist]

I never got into Marshalls because they've always been impractical in my lifetime. Yes....I love the sounds of a cranked Marshall, but I have never been able to, save once, crank my amps up to get power tube saturation for a gig. Now with the 20W heads and such it is more feasible, but I am basically die hard Fender amp guy, who now uses modeling thru a JC120. Mostly because that's what I have, but also because its stereo. And I don't want to sound like a lot of other players. Plus Marshall FX loops saturate pretty quickly and sound like mush with modulation pedals. I prefer clean palettes with a lot of character I can use in conjunction with effects to really shape my own tone.

I need way more than just dirt in my amp to be inspired, so the traditional mods aren't going to cover those bases. No one puts, vibrato, chorus, delay and such in a Plexi, so that's where multi-fx and modelers come in.

True Marshall effects loops have never been that great.
The levels are always retarded.

On several models, there is an effects level control.
Turn the control one way...the send increases and the return decreases at the same time. It's built that way.
Turn the control the other way...
the return increases and the send decreases at the same time.

In other words, it's impossible to set the send and return to the correct level, no matter where you turn the knob.
Somebody at Marshall thought this was a great idea.
Stupid.

 

[SIx String Chef]

True Marshall effects loops have never been that great.
The levels are always retarded.

On several models, there is an effects level control.
Turn the control one way...the send increases and the return decreases at the same time. It's built that way.
Turn the control the other way...
the return increases and the send decreases at the same time.

In other words, it's impossible to set the send and return to the correct level, no matter where you turn the knob.
Somebody at Marshall thought this was a great idea.
Stupid.

What would be the purpose for this?? Is there a mod that would "correct" this?

 

[Inspector #20]

What would be the purpose for this?? Is there a mod that would "correct" this?

The Metro style digital FX loop is a huge sonic improvement.

 

[TheToneDig]

I hear ya. I've been following this thread since the beginning. And all your other mod threads, even though I don't know much about modding amps yet. I am reading up as much as I can, and watching tons of videos, but I have no real world experience per se.

I love the idea of what you're talking about, but I don't have the scratch to grab a n Origin nor the chops to mod it. But I certainly do love the idea.

You can attenuate the Marshall Studios and Origin with their power staging feature or run them full wattage into an attenuator, or even do both if you want. When you do that you can then use the Master volume for the legendary Marshall crunch which usually sets after 1 o'clock.

Put a Friedman BE-OD pedal in front of the Origin and it will also roar.

 

[Amp Mad Scientist]

What would be the purpose for this?? Is there a mod that would "correct" this?

Yes.
I have modified several effects loops.
But simply because effects pedals don't have a standard level, they are all different.

In USA effects pedals are generally made for a guitar level input signal....
But Marshall usually makes the level a lot different than that.
And so you wind up with a send level that's too hot and overloads the effects input....
and you wind up with a return level that's too weak, and won't drive the power amp properly.

So for professional effects (like Eventide) the level can be 5X more.
This gives you a much better signal to noise ratio, and a lot cleaner signal which is pretty much Hi Fi quality.
Very low noise, not typical of cheap effects pedals.
(typical cheap effects units are extremely noisy)
which is why I love Eventide....it's studio quality low noise Hi Fi.

I mean, that Eventide blows away a lot of studio plate reverbs easily...

But then try to match those professional levels to a typical effects loop and it don't work.
Because the loops are all different, not standardized.
The pedals levels are all different not standardized.

So sure it causes a lot of problems.
The send needs to be adjustable, separately.
The return needs to be adjustable...separately.
And the levels need to have a very wide range which accommodates all these different types of effects units.

But the only time you find that much adjustment range - is on a professional mixing board. Not a guitar amp.
No wonder effects loops are modified, not surprising.

 

[Inspector #20]

You can attenuate the Marshall Studios and Origin with their power staging feature or run them full wattage into an attenuator, or even do both if you want. When you do that you can then use the Master volume for the legendary Marshall crunch which usually sets after 1 o'clock.

Put a Friedman BE-OD pedal in front of the Origin and it will also roar.

I use a Boss FV30L in the FX loop to allow me to keep my master volume on 7 or 8...