DSL40C Surprise:

[Jethro Rocker]

The Electro-Harmonix 12VR75 speaker is also 100db and I know they always sounded louder than other speakers.

Right. So same setup with say a T75 the basic dB level will be the same as if you halved the power of the amp. Or the reverse - the EH in an amp that previously had a T75 will be like doubling your power. So a 40 watt with EH is same output as an 80 watt with T75. That's just basic dB meter output dead on, nothing to do with mid settings etc...

 

[Mitch Pearrow SJMP]

Yes I did go to a couple of the rehearsals in Murietta and when Todd had finally brought out his carvin stack, he didn’t cut through the mix much, and his other amps didn’t sound like much, and I sold him a
AVT50H and matching cab.
But the band disintegrated shortly after, even though they had another bassist, and guitarist, at that point the band started to really come together. To me at least.
Cheers

 

[67plexi]

Lets see the transformer photos ?? Lets hope not 100 watt opt would be 1K75 a 50 watt would be 3K2 primary impudence in a Marshall

 

[Inspector #20]

Very true. I’ve experienced this first hand. A scooped sound can be just as loud on a dB meter as a sound that is not as scooped, but in the mix the sound will nearly disappear.

Todd was anything but scooped. I had more volume reserves than his 100 watt.

 

[Inspector #20]

Lets see the transformer photos ?? Lets hope not 100 watt opt would be 1K75 a 50 watt would be 3K2 primary impudence in a Marshall

I didn't photo the labels on the transformers because we didn't see them until we were assembling the head cabinet. It's already left for a gig tonight with it's owners.

 

[Inspector #20]

Yes I did go to a couple of the rehearsals in Murietta and when Todd had finally brought out his carvin stack, he didn’t cut through the mix much, and his other amps didn’t sound like much, and I sold him a
AVT50H and matching cab.
But the band disintegrated shortly after, even though they had another bassist, and guitarist, at that point the band started to really come together. To me at least.
Cheers

@smitty_p @Jethro Rocker -

@Mitch Pearrow SJMP sold Todd a Valvestate AVT50 head and 'VS' 4x12 cabinet. That Valvestate obliterated the Carvin 100 watt tube head. It would pierce the mix even at much lower volumes. Todd was always set mids and treble full up.

I agree with Mitch. It was a sad thing in many ways. There was a lot of internal conflict in that band. There was a majority vote to release both guitarists (we had three including me) and we moved on with another guitarist, who was a friend of our bassist. The bass player and new guitarist would ultimately organize a coup against the singer (Jim) and try and forcefully take over the band. This didn't work, but it did cause the band to split, effectively ending the project.

 

[smitty_p]

Todd was anything but scooped. I had more volume reserves than his 100 watt.

No argument. I was merely expressing agreement with Jethro’s observation, as I’ve witnessed the same.

 

[smitty_p]

@smitty_p @Jethro Rocker - @Mitch Pearrow SJMP sold Todd a Valvestate AVT50 head and 'VS' 4x12 cabinet. That Valvestate obliterated the Carvin 100 watt tube head. It would pierce the mix even at much lower volumes. Todd was always set mids and treble full up.

I have no doubt. Wattage does not necessarily equal volume, though. It’s an easy reference point and we tend to equate the two, but they aren’t the same. The other confusing thing is that not all manufacturers calculate and report wattage the same.

I really can’t say why one lower-rated amp seemed so much louder than another, higher-rated, amplifier. There are many things that go into that. It would have been interesting to actually test the two with a dB meter, but that would only have been useful if each amp was driving the same speaker.

But, here’s an interesting fact, all other things being equal, it takes 10 times the wattage to sound twice as loud. So, given the same rating methodology and the same speaker, it would require a 100 watt amplifier to sound twice as loud as a 10 watt amplifier!

 

[Jethro Rocker]

sold Todd a Valvestate AVT50 head and 'VS' 4x12 cabinet. That Valvestate obliterated the Carvin 100 watt tube head

I would say the carvin has some issues at that rate. Which could be.

 

[Inspector #20]

I would say the carvin has some issues at that rate. Which could be.

Well, I've put that same DSL40C up against 100 watt JCM's and could match them in a large club, so I'm not convinced the Carvin was broken.

 

[Inspector #20]

I have no doubt. Wattage does not necessarily equal volume, though. It’s an easy reference point and we tend to equate the two, but they aren’t the same. The other confusing thing is that not all manufacturers calculate and report wattage the same.

I really can’t say why one lower-rated amp seemed so much louder than another, higher-rated, amplifier. There are many things that go into that. It would have been interesting to actually test the two with a dB meter, but that would only have been useful if each amp was driving the same speaker.

But, here’s an interesting fact, all other things being equal, it takes 10 times the wattage to sound twice as loud. So, give the same rating methodology and the same speaker, it would require a 100 watt amplifier to sound twice as loud as a 10 watt amplifier!

I never run less than a 100db speaker in anything as a general rule. The 12VR75 's were 100 or 101db.

I performed with guys running 97db Creambacks and the volume difference is significant.

 

[Inspector #20]

No argument. I was merely expressing agreement with Jethro’s observation, as I’ve witnessed the same.

No argument here. @Mitch Pearrow SJMP will tell you that Todd would ask me to dial in his EQ's for him and the amp played and sounded fine. I even made sure that all 8 speskers were indeed functioning.

The Carvin was a good amp, but kinda like the JCM's I've played through, dial position for dial position, even the Ivanberg Origin 50 is louder and its louder overall that the JCM 800 at Rat's Nest Studios. @syscokid was the first to notice how loud the Ivanberg was and at Rat's Nest Studios, we've proven the loudness theory on the dB meter.

Can't explain it though....

 

[smitty_p]

I never run less than a 100db speaker in anything as a general rule. The 12VR75 's were 100 or 101db.

I performed with guys running 97db Creambacks and the volume difference is significant.

You bet! That speaker with a 100dB sensitivity will let you get plenty loud!

But, one is not necessarily better. For me, I prefer more sensitive speakers because it lets me run my amp in its clean range better but still get plenty of volume. A less sensitive speaker would allow a person to crank the amp more but still have a little more volume control due to the inherent qualities of the speaker. It all depends on what your needs are.

 

[smitty_p]

No argument here. @Mitch Pearrow SJMP will tell you that Todd would ask me to dial in his EQ's for him and the amp played and sounded fine. I even made sure that all 8 speskers were indeed functioning.

The Carvin was a good amp, but kinda like the JCM's I've played through, dial position for dial position, even the Ivanberg Origin 50 is louder and its louder overall that the JCM 800 at Rat's Nest Studios. @syscokid was the first to notice how loud the Ivanberg was and at Rat's Nest Studios, we've proven the loudness theory on the dB meter.

Can't explain it though....

Let me ask, was Todd using speakers with a higher impedance rating than yours?

 

[Jethro Rocker]

Well, I've put that same DSL40C up against 100 watt JCM's and could match them in a large club, so I'm not convinced the Carvin was broken.

But a SS power section AVT 50 watt should not bury it..
A JCM 800 2203 100 watt thru a 4x12 shouid ultimately kill a DSL40 if volume is up enough. Depends on speakers tho etc
I had one many years ago. Would kill many PA systems. I also had a DSL40C. Great little amp.

 

[Inspector #20]

You bet! That speaker with a 100dB sensitivity will let you get plenty loud!

But, one is not necessarily better. For me, I prefer more sensitive speakers because it lets me run my amp in its clean range better but still get plenty of volume. A less sensitive speaker would allow a person to crank the amp more but still have a little more volume control due to the inherent qualities of the speaker. It all depends on what your needs are.

On the "new" (LOL 1993) Valvestate Bi-Chorus 8200, I'm using Celestion Copperback 250watt Neodymiums. They have 100db sensitivity and each side of the amp is powering an individual speaker for tons of headroom.

 

[Inspector #20]

But a SS power section AVT 50 watt should not bury it..
A JCM 800 2203 100 watt thru a 4x12 shouid ultimately kill a DSL40 if volume is up enough. Depends on speakers tho etc
I had one many years ago. Would kill many PA systems. I also had a DSL40C. Great little amp.

You know, for years I have heard that a tube amp will "bury" a solid state. TBTH, I actually find that theory not to hold water. As a teacher at the local music academy ( I teach the live performance workshop) I am seeing more and more guys with 100 watt Katana's that hold their own against 50 and 100 watt tube half and full stacks in our rehearsal studio. Now, I will say that I do not (and should not) promote volume contests, but we have pitted the SS amps against all tube and found that the Katana can produce the same db's as a 100 watt all tube amplifier.

 

[smitty_p]

You know, for years I have heard that a tube amp will "bury" a solid state. TBTH, I actually find that theory not to hold water. As a teacher at the local music academy ( I teach the live performance workshop) I am seeing more and more guys with 100 watt Katana's that hold their own against 50 and 100 watt tube half and full stacks in our rehearsal studio. Now, I will say that I do not (and should not) promote volume contests, but we have pitted the SS amps against all tube and found that the Katana can produce the same db's as a 100 watt all tube amplifier.

This is correct. Watts are watts. There is no such thing as a “tube” watt or a ”solid-state” watt. Watts are voltage times current, regardless of the system. What I think has happened in the past is that the harmonics produced by tubes added to the overall audio content. Hence, the sound seemed louder because it had more content. However, for better designed SS amps, the audio content is better and fuller, improving the perception of volume. Actually, I’ve read this someplace, but can’t recall the website. My apologies. I think some cheaper, loosely-rated SS amps could be buried by a tube amp of a similar advertised rating, but that‘s a different situation.

Also, it is possible that differing rating methodologies have inflated the advertised wattage capability of some amps.

 

[Jethro Rocker]

This is correct. Watts are watts. There is no such thing as a “tube” watt or a ”solid-state” watt. Watts are voltage times current, regardless of the system. What I think has happened in the past is that the harmonics produced by tubes added to the overall audio content. Hence, the sound seemed louder because it had more content. However, for better designed SS amps, the audio content is better and fuller, improving the perception of volume. Actually, I’ve read this someplace, but can’t recall the website. My apologies. I think some cheaper, loosely-rated SS amps could be buried by a tube amp of a similar advertised rating, but that‘s a different situation.

Also, it is possible that differing rating methodologies have inflated the advertised wattage capability of some amps.

Do tube amps not usually top out at higher than rated output tho when pushed? So a 100 watt tube pinned might put out 130 to 150?

 

[smitty_p]

Do tube amps not usually top out at higher than rated output tho when pushed? So a 100 watt tube pinned might put out 130 to 150?

That may be. That‘s an interesting point. I really don’t know for sure. That may be a question for others.