NGD - strat thread follow-up.

[Mr Grumpy]

After lots of interesting discussion and advice from esteemed members, I went out and tried lots of guitars and bought the one I enjoyed playing most.

This seemed to be the consensus, so I bought:
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You lot did say to try them out and buy the one I liked best!

Yes, I went out to buy a strat, but while a few Koreans were trying a few guitars and blocking my path, rather than cluttering up that area, I went for a walk around the store to see what else was there (a closing down sale in this particular store, so good prices, but quite busy). Saw this, like it. Pulled it down and had a play, liked it more. Looked it over, and liked it more and more.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

It's a mini-Martin LX1E.

Spruce top, but most of the rest is their mahogany laminate version stuff and plastic/graphtech bits. The tuners are Gotoh/Martin. Everything feels really good, and it's very easy enjoyable to hold and play, and it's very low volume when unplugged, so easy for night playing.

I like the look, feels great, not heavy, but reassuringly substantial, plus I like the idea that lots of trees aren't being destroyed to make a quality instrument.

Plays and sounds great when fretted, but even though it seemed fine to me in the shop, the truss rod needs a tweak because as I play scales up the neck: nice from the first fret, normal on the third, getting high on the 5th fret then tower block like there on up the neck; not sure how to bring the bridge height down on an acoustic, but I will have to learn.

Playable and nice, but far from ideal - and no, I won't be going back to Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum to get a set-up.



Here we go:

Please feel free to add suggestions/advice; another learning opportunity has presented itself. Realistically, a set-up of a new guitar by yeeself is expected, isn't it?

 

[smitty_p]

Congrats, Grumpy!

 

[RVA]

View attachment 8553

View attachment 8554

View attachment 8555

View attachment 8556

View attachment 8557

It's a mini-Martin LX1E.

Spruce top, but most of the rest is their mahogany laminate version stuff and plastic/graphtech bits. The tuners are Gotoh/Martin. Everything feels really good, and it's very easy enjoyable to hold and play, and it's very low volume when unplugged, so easy for night playing.

I like the look, feels great, not heavy, but reassuringly substantial, plus I like the idea that lots of trees aren't being destroyed to make a quality instrument.

Plays and sounds great when fretted, but even though it seemed fine to me in the shop, the truss rod needs a tweak because as I play scales up the neck: nice from the first fret, normal on the third, getting high on the 5th fret then tower block like there on up the neck; not sure how to bring the bridge height down on an acoustic, but I will have to learn.

Playable and nice, but far from ideal - and no, I won't be going back to Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum to get a set-up.



Here we go:

Please feel free to add suggestions/advice; another learning opportunity has presented itself. Realistically, a set-up of a new guitar by yeeself is expected, isn't it?

Congrats!! More tonal variety and.....a Martin!! I just played one of those since I have been checking out parlor guitars and I loved it.

For the setup, the action/bridge height is adjusted by sanding the bottom of the saddle. When I got my Martin, I was not happy with the action. I got a bone blank and fashioned my own saddle since I like the action low like an electric. You should do this yourself as you can create your own contour for the top of the saddle to personalize the action you prefer. The process is not reversable (except with a shim), so go slow. However, if you mess up, a new saddle is not hard to find. If it is plastic, consider upgrading to bone. My Martin had graph tech, but I preferred bone. Unlike a nut, a saddle is involved in every strum, so take the time to find what you like.

I think you made a great choice. You will read that the top is the most important part of the guitar whereas the back and sides do not really contribute to the tone as much. After the top, the most important thing is the design (like bracing) IMHO and Martin knows a thing or 2 about this.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Thanks for the info and thoughts, RVA. Looks like I'll be sanding a saddle!

I think the Martin specs are (although these seem to be general specs, not specifically for this guitar, but they seem reasonable):
HighE 1.6 to 2.0mm 1/16 to 5/64
LowE 2.4 to 2.8mm 3/32 to 7/64

I am at:
HighE 2.5mm 2/64
LowE 4.5mm 3/64

so, suffice to say that I'm too high. Oh, I'm talking unfretted at the 12th here. I am terrible at spotting anything in a shop; once I get home, it all becomes very obvious. To be fair, it would not have affected my decision - the guitar just needs a setup, clean and new strings would be nice.

I bought some Martin phospher bronze lights (.012 to .054); not sure if these are right, so please let me know if I've made an error.

Here are some general specs on the guitar:

I think you made a great choice. You will read that the top is the most important part of the guitar whereas the back and sides do not really contribute to the tone as much. After the top, the most important thing is the design (like bracing) IMHO and Martin knows a thing or 2 about this.

Thank you. &, yeah the guitar sounds good regardless of the construction. I've seen it said that the laminate structure such as the multiple piece neck helps rigidity for a travel guitar - that makes sense.

 

[RVA]

Thanks for the info and thoughts, RVA. Looks like I'll be sanding a saddle!

I think the Martin specs are (although these seem to be general specs, not specifically for this guitar, but they seem reasonable):
HighE 1.6 to 2.0mm 1/16 to 5/64
LowE 2.4 to 2.8mm 3/32 to 7/64

I am at:
HighE 2.5mm 2/64
LowE 4.5mm 3/64

so, suffice to say that I'm too high. Oh, I'm talking unfretted at the 12th here. I am terrible at spotting anything in a shop; once I get home, it all becomes very obvious. To be fair, it would not have affected my decision - the guitar just needs a setup, clean and new strings would be nice.

I bought some Martin phospher bronze lights (.012 to .054); not sure if these are right, so please let me know if I've made an error.

Here are some general specs on the guitar:

Thank you. &, yeah the guitar sounds good regardless of the construction. I've seen it said that the laminate structure such as the multiple piece neck helps rigidity for a travel guitar - that makes sense.

Very nice. However, do not be concerned with their specs. You would not have checked the Fender site for string height specs and should not now. However, there is more relevance here. You see, you do not have a seperate intonation setting - ie, you cannot move the saddle forward and backward. Because of this, there will be a height that is optimal for intonation, and action vs intonation becomes a traded off. Personally, I sacrificed some intonation for lower action and nobody seems to notice, including me!

Please remember that you are not confined to shaving only the bottom. You can adjust individual string height if you shave the top in the area of that string, effectively creating shelves on the top of the bridge. If it buzzes, you went too far, so just use that saddle as a template next time and stay above that height. This is a slow procedure requiring small adjustments and re-checking, but you will probably not have to do it again for a decade and everyone will marvel at how well your acousic plays. They will go from store to store trying to find one just like it and fail. My point is you can only get so far "out of the box"

 

[RVA]

I added a line or 2 in edits above, so read it again if you find it helpful

 

[Mr Grumpy]

you do not have a seperate intonation setting - ie, you cannot move the saddle forward and backward. Because of this, there will be a height that is optimal for intonation, and action vs intonation becomes a traded off

Yep, that makes good sense, thank you - I see the route forward.

BTW, the tuners on this little baby are really nice, seem to be high ratio and accurate. The onboard tuner works perfectly too. &, plugged into the Yamaha THR10 acoustic setting it sounds bigger and louder; very nice.

Just checked the action again with a bit more accuracy, and the highE and lowE are both about 3mm at the bottom of the string on the unfretted 12th. The lowE seems fine although on the high end. The problem is the HighE which is much too high and feels uncomfortable beyond the 3rd fret. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd fret heights look normal/good.

There is a compensated bridge, as in the picture below:



The saddle pins don't look seated properly? Here's a view from the back:

 

[RVA]

Yep, that makes good sense, thank you - I see the route forward.

BTW, the tuners on this little baby are really nice, seem to be high ratio and accurate. The onboard tuner works perfectly too. &, plugged into the Yamaha THR10 acoustic setting it sounds bigger and louder; very nice.

Just checked the action again with a bit more accuracy, and the highE and lowE are both about 3mm at the bottom of the string on the unfretted 12th. The lowE seems fine although on the high end. The problem is the HighE which is much too high and feels uncomfortable beyond the 3rd fret. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd fret heights look normal/good.

There is a compensated bridge, as in the picture below:

View attachment 8558

The saddle pins don't look seated properly? Here's a view from the back:

View attachment 8559

That was my point about adjusting the top of the saddle instead of the bottom. If 3 of the strings are perfect, why would you change that by sanding the bottom? Just sand a shelf at the top where the string that is too high sits (and a bit to the left and right of it too of course - after all, this is not a nut and we want a shelf, not a groove). It would be a good idea to know how that string is intonated before you start. If it is already flat, that will be making it more so when you sand it downward. However, if the intonation is sharp on that string, you will actually be helping your intonation and your action at the same time. The premise is that Martin got it perfect by spec, but given that it is a production guitar, you cannot depend n this. It would be foolish never to check.

NOTE. Get your truss rod adjusted properly before adjusting the saddle, as you would with an electric.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Good advice there, RVA.

I will be at that and report back.

1) Truss rod.
2) Intonation.
3) Bridge.

I've watched the video above where the fellow has taken out the bridge (with some wire cutters!), sanded it down, replaced it, tweaked the trussrod. He's a bit all over the shop with his numbers, but it's nice to see the job done on the same guitar.

Just need a Martin truss rod tool.

What could possibly go wrong?


This video is quite interesting. He mentions to hold the string down where the neck meets the body aswellas holding down the first fret then seeing how much movement the string has: lots and you can tighten the trussrod; none and you can't/there's no reason to; a slight gap and that may be perfect for getting the full string vibration. By that measure, my truss rod is perfect. I also reckon my nut cut is ok because I use my standard calculation: if a .7 pick just holds itself in without slipping through at the first fret, and a 1.0 pick just holds itself in at the second fret then you're about where you need to be.

Intonation is fine on the lowE and A; a tad sharp in the middle; ok-ish on the B, but sharp on the highE.

So, it looks like time to take the saddle out. I think I will take a little bit off the bottom, maybe 0.5mm at first, then check it, then maybe some off the highE, then check it. Should be better by then, ballpark ok.

 

[RVA]

Good advice there, RVA.

I will be at that tomorrow and report back.

1) Truss rod.
2) Intonation.
3) Bridge.

I've watched the video above where the fellow has taken out the bridge (with some wire cutters!), sanded it down, replaced it, tweaked the trussrod. He's a bit all over the shop with his numbers, but it's nice to see the job done on the same guitar.

Just need a Martin truss rod tool.

What could possibly go wrong?

I had to order one too. I got it on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G34E8G8/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Walks Backward]

You got took. Strats come with a tremolo bar and they didn't even give ya one.

By the way...

 

[syscokid]

Congrats Grumpy...

I was intending to post that a Strat doesn't belong in the acoustic category. Didn't see this one coming...

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Didn't see this one coming...

Neither did I!

Right, today's job is to buy some sandpaper then...

 

[Gahr]

Sweet guitar. Congrats!

 

[Mr Grumpy]

I'm not so sure, Gahr - played it for many hours today, and it feels like a wrong 'un to me. Chords are nowhere near as clean and bright as they should be, imho. My Ibanez dreadnought sounded very much better. I suppose, due to the size, I expect that (this is very comfortable to play), but a Martin should sound better than this...

Plugged in, still can't get any decent open chord sounds - and that must be wrong.

Ok, the strings are terrible and need changing, and the highE saddle height is stopping the crisp end to a strum, but it should sound better than this. I don't know how I can be such a terrible shopper; I looked it over for 30 minutes in the shop, tested out chords and frets and general construction. Ok, other people were playing loudly, so it wasn't easy to hear the acoustic as clearly as I like, but still... I'm a dire shopper.

I'm taking this back tomorrow - they'll probably tell me to @$^%#

 

[eSGEe]

I thought acoustics had to "season" to get true good tone

Drops a speaker in it and listen to rap for a week.....
Or put it in front of a bass amp and vibrate the crap out of it......these are things I have seen others proclaim works to "{open up the wood" ---


I dont know I have a 74 Epiphone bolt neck acoustic.......love it--- maybe wait 43 years and yours will sound good????

 

[Gahr]

I'm not so sure, Gahr - played it for many hours today, and it feels like a wrong 'un to me. Chords are nowhere near as clean and bright as they should be, imho. My Ibanez dreadnought sounded very much better. I suppose, due to the size, I expect that (this is very comfortable to play), but a Martin should sound better than this...

Plugged in, still can't get any decent open chord sounds - and that must be wrong.

Ok, the strings are terrible and need changing, and the highE saddle height is stopping the crisp end to a strum, but it should sound better than this. I don't know how I can be such a terrible shopper; I looked it over for 30 minutes in the shop, tested out chords and frets and general construction. Ok, other people were playing loudly, so it wasn't easy to hear the acoustic as clearly as I like, but still... I'm a dire shopper.

I'm taking this back tomorrow - they'll probably tell me to @$^%#

Ah! Too bad. Hope you find something you like and bond with. And you know what that means. A Gibson SG Standard (I guess you'd want a batwing model) and a Vox AC30!

 

[syscokid]

That was a quick Honeymoon... .

A real parlor size Martin is going to cost about 5x as much. About a year ago, I was on a hunt for a small, semi-cheap, decent quality acoustic. I settled on the Taylor GS Mini. I chose the mahogany top version, with no electrics. Couldn't be happier at this price point of $500.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Yeah, I suggest the GS mini is better sounding, but more money and bigger. Also, I'd like electronics.

Once again a learning experience: if one buys the guitar that one feels comfortable with on the day then it's a real possibility, as in this case, that one hasn't well researched the guitar segment. I suspect this small and very easy to play guitar could be fine if everything was sorted out well. It is constructed well and is the right size for my needs, and the tuner/electronic system seems to be of decent quality and work well.