Odd Intonation Issue on 24.75" Tele-Style Build:

Inspector #20

Inspector #20

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So as I've written previously, I needed to build a new nut for one of my custom Von Herndon guitars. The nut slot was a little oversize, so I used a brass blank and shaped it appropriately, rounded the edges and cut the slots for .011" x .052" going .004" over string diameter, which is my usual SOP for nut making.

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The front edge (bridge side) is cut square and the nut slots fan out towards the tuners with a generous fall-away. Again, this is just my way of doing nuts and it's a technique that gave great results on tremolo equipped guitars, so I employ this method on all nuts.

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So, what I've noticed on this particular guitar is I've had to move the 'D' and high 'e' saddles all the way towards the nut to get them to intonate. These are the only two saddles that behave in this fashion. Strings are a new set of Dean Markley .011" x .052".

I'm wondering if perhaps my string contact point in the nut slot may not be close enough to the front edge of the nut??? That would explain the saddle shift, but in general, when the contact points are too far rearward, you get a jangly, 'sitar-like' effect, which is absent here.

Thoughts????

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Couple of photos I just took...

To my eye, this looks to be 24.50" scale. I'm measuring from the very front (bridge edge) of the nut to the 12th fret...

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Here's some saddle photos. Note how the low 'E' is correctly intonated at around 24.75"

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Close up of the high 'e' saddles position...

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Robert Herndon said:
Couple of photos I just took...

To my eye, this looks to be 24.50" scale. I'm measuring from the very front (bridge edge) of the nut to the 12th fret...

View attachment 76351

Here's some saddle photos. Note how the low 'E' is correctly intonated at around 24.75"

View attachment 76353

Close up of the high 'e' saddles position...

View attachment 76352
Click to expand...

Let me guess…you had your guitars made to “Gibson Scale”, correct? Even if you specified 24.75”, a Gibson Scale is assumed.

Therein lies the dilemma.

Gibson’s “advertised” scale length of 24.74 inches isn’t actually 24.75 inches! It used to be, but today it nearly always falls at about 24.5”. Gibson hasn’t actually made a true 24.75” scale length guitar for decades.

According to Stew-Mac, it is actually 24 9/16” (24.5625”).

Article linked below:

Guitar Scale Length Explained - StewMac - StewMac

Scale Length Explained
www.stewmac.com www.stewmac.com
 
chilipeppermaniac said:
Problem I see is Robert's guitar is a Fender Copy. GIB scale length is not right for the guitar. Needs a new Neck and start over with Tele scale length.
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Gibson scales work well with Fenders. It looks more like the bridge was mounted in the wrong place. Neck was made to Gibson 24 3/4" scale, and made to about 24 9/16" like most Gibsons, then the bridge was mounted at 24 3/4". At least it's not an ABR1 bridge. You'll never be able to correct it without drilling new holes. A couple of longer saddles screws, and this guitar is good to go.
 
I'm wondering if perhaps my string contact point in the nut slot may not be close enough to the front edge of the nut???

yes......

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SG John said:
Gibson scales work well with Fenders. It looks more like the bridge was mounted in the wrong place. Neck was made to Gibson 24 3/4" scale, and made to about 24 9/16" like most Gibsons, then the bridge was mounted at 24 3/4". At least it's not an ABR1 bridge. You'll never be able to correct it without drilling new holes. A couple of longer saddles screws, and this guitar is good to go.
Click to expand...

Thanks, John...this is the last one. I just want to get it dialed in and be done with it. I never want to build another guitar ever again. Too much time and effort.

This project (on this guitar) was something my Mom wanted to do or I would have never done it.
 
SG John said:
Gibson scales work well with Fenders. It looks more like the bridge was mounted in the wrong place. Neck was made to Gibson 24 3/4" scale, and made to about 24 9/16" like most Gibsons, then the bridge was mounted at 24 3/4". At least it's not an ABR1 bridge. You'll never be able to correct it without drilling new holes. A couple of longer saddles screws, and this guitar is good to go.
Click to expand...
If it's not the nut slots,
I think the bridge may be mounted a wee askew...
what else can go wrong?
The old holes can have dowels glued in what else can you do?
 
Sp8ctre said:
I like Gremlins and Telecasters...
Click to expand...

I know Robert is a particular kind of detail oriented player and mechanic on things. I am wired almost completely the opposite. I have so many different scale length, neck width, string thickness and even whole different classes of stringed instruments, that I have to adjust myself to the instrument instead of try to make my main or all my instruments exactly the same spec, feel etc.

For example, Robert has the San Dimas, Double Neck, Mom's Custom, Spray Can Strat, new LP and Chibcon.

Me, I have a Jackson, Tele, Washburn HB30, and '76 Sg STd all with Skinny nut widths, OH and a BANJO with about the skinniest neck going, short of a Mandolin.

Then come my Epi LP, 2 Strats, PRS Santana SE, 3 SG's and 3 Fender Basses.

Somehow I think my brain would explode if I was not able to mentally adjust to change and essentially not be able to tell the differences.

Same thing goes with my use of power tools, hand tools, and vehicles. If they are runners, I will make up for any flaws.
 
Not to be dismissive of Robert's aim with this TeleMutt, I must ask for clairty so I can understand. What is the anomaly you are experiencing? In other words, when you go to do this, that happens? And when you adjust this in that direction, or that in the opposite, etc, what is the result?

I know you are talking intonation,,,,,, so are you having what amounts to string length issues at open vs fretted, and running out of saddle adjustment room? Does a String Tree vs absence of string tree while making the adjustments make a difference?
 
Robert Herndon said:
Here's some saddle photos. Note how the low 'E' is correctly intonated at around 24.75"
Click to expand...

For Rob and all here who know, I have a few questions about this intonation thing. Rob seems to be asking as well.

From what I know, Ideally guitars are setup so that open tuning and then tuning at the 12th fret ( same notes only higher) should yield the exact same notes. I am presuming the positioning of Robert's bridge and where he adjusted each saddle to and fro, he is having trouble dialing in all matching notes for all 6 strings given the placement of the bridge, nut and saddle adjustments at his latest settings.

Another factor I have not seen mentioned is Robert's string height adjustments. I am pretty sure the higher the saddle is, there is a cause and effect there as well. Might be only a few cents but still it will show up in Robert's tuners.
 
chilipeppermaniac said:
Not to be dismissive of Robert's aim with this TeleMutt, I must ask for clairty so I can understand. What is the anomaly you are experiencing? In other words, when you go to do this, that happens? And when you adjust this in that direction, or that in the opposite, etc, what is the result?

I know you are talking intonation,,,,,, so are you having what amounts to string length issues at open vs fretted, and running out of saddle adjustment room? Does a String Tree vs absence of string tree while making the adjustments make a difference?
Click to expand...

Right, but intonation needs to be tempered too, so, yes, I intonate slightly flat with most guu3tars....
 
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