Why Do We "Over-Trick" Everything???

Inspector #20

Inspector #20

Ambassador of Tone
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Funny...Simple is always better seems to be universally shunned today. I wonder why???

I've watched guys move a microphone around for 45 minutes, recording sound clips and looking for some mythical 'sweet spot' that I do not believe exists. I've also watched studio engineers set up 5 to 8 microphones on a guitar cabinet. Vocally, I've been seated in front of a Decca Tree more times than I can remember. In the end, is it really better???

When you listen back to recordings like Def Leppard's Pyromania, it's obvious that all the work going into the production really does pay off, but that level of production is tough to recreate in a live setting.

I have always gone against the grain so to speak in my approach. I do not move my EQ settings based on the venue. I only alter volume levels. It takes me less than 15 minutes total time to set up my rig for a live performance and I switched to Floyd Rose guitars so I do not have to check tune after every song. All my efforts are to enhance and simplify the performance.

When I re-recorded the guitar parts for my new single "Revolution," I had all kinds of mike placement advice from my colleagues. One fellow even offered me use of some of his classic Neumann microphones. In the end. I went down my own pathway.

I started by setting up my rig in a small, furnished bedroom in our house. I then set up a Audio Technica AT2020 in front of the amp at a distance of about 6 feet. I didn't try to aim it in any particular direction, rather I just threw it down in a kick drum mic stand.

All my usual live amp settings were used. Nothing was changed. the entire pedalboard was running with the exception of delay and reverb, which were shut off. Master Volume is always on '6' and no changes were made to any of the amp, EQ or pedalboard settings. To say the amp was loud would be understatement. I rattled photos off the walls and had to stop and take them all down and lay them out on the bed to avoid damaging them.

I recorded three guitar parts on this track. All three were played back-to-back, and each in a single take. Any slight anomalies, pick noise, string slide, was all left in to simulate a live recording.

Take 1 is panned 60% right - Take 2 is panned 60% left - Take 3 is panned on center.

There is no post-recording mixing or EQ-ing on these tracks.

So, here's the rig rundown:

$100.00 Audio Technica AT2020 microphone

Chibster Les Paul with an Epiphone HB8N bridge pickup

All Monoprice Guitar Cables

$499 Marshall Origin 50 all stock except for (3) Genelex Gold Lion B759 Tubes

Hand-built mahogany 2X12 speaker cabinet with (1) Jensen Stealth 80 watt and (1) WGS Reaper 55 Hz

Focusrite 2i2 Interface into PC

Recorded on Audacity

Dropbox - Error - Simplify your life

www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com

I am certain there are better rigs, better tones, better guitarists, more expensive whatever...but when you consider the tone on this recording, I would say that not only is it an "authentic" hard rock tone, it's something that is 100% repeatable in a live setting without ultra high dollar equipment or some mysterious mic placement technique that doesn't really improve anything...

Tonally Yours,

- Rob

P.S. Tuning is Eb with the low 'E' tuned to C#
 
Sounds really great man. Gotta say, I agree almost 100% with everything you said here, excepting Pyromania, haha. That album sound so artificial and 'overproduced' to me, none of the immediacy a real Rock band should have. God Mutt Lange is sonic murderer of great bands.

Keep up the good work brother.
 
If you could figure out the mindset on these questions you'd be filthy rich!

I'm starting to lose the "gotta be perfect" to print.

As usual Mr. Robert, you're sounding great.

Sure do appreciate your thoughts on these various subjects, really gives me an insight into a successful guys mindset.
 
gball said:
Sounds really great man. Gotta say, I agree almost 100% with everything you said here, excepting Pyromania, haha. That album sound so artificial and 'overproduced' to me, none of the immediacy a real Rock band should have. God Mutt Lange is sonic murderer of great bands.

Keep up the good work brother.
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I remember being fascinated by 'Pyromania' back when it came out. I didn't notice that Lange put quite the level of over production on his work with AC/DC...did you??
 
steveb63 said:
If you could figure out the mindset on these questions you'd be filthy rich!

I'm starting to lose the "gotta be perfect" to print.

As usual Mr. Robert, you're sounding great.

Sure do appreciate your thoughts on these various subjects, really gives me an insight into a successful guys mindset.
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Most of this is just observations from a cheapskate musician. I can't fathom spending $$$ needlessly.
 
Robert Herndon said:
I remember being fascinated by 'Pyromania' back when it came out. I didn't notice that Lange put quite the level of over production on his work with AC/DC...did you??
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At least earlier on it seemed like he would let a band's identity hang around when he first worked with them, before pushing them to wear skirts. He didn't screw up Highway to Hell too much (although compared to their earlier stuff it's a little precious-sounding), but I suspect that's because the songs were just so strong on their own and Bon would have kicked his ass if he'd ruined anything. Back in Black is definitely overcooked for a more POPular radio audience and, well, from there is just a disaster.

As for Def Leppard, same thing - there was just a little bit of the fancy-pants going on with High 'n' Dry (which again was nothing but amazing songs) but he took over by Pyromania and sorry to say it sounds like a prissy Pop album to me, not a Hard Rock record.

Hell, Lange managed to snip the balls off of The Outlaws, Foreigner and The Cars too!
 
I have humble roots in music. I grew up struggling with ASD and everything just came really hard for me, especially from a musical perspective. The only reason I can play at all is sheer force of will. There is zero skill involved.

My main guitar, from the time I was 15 until I was 19, was a hand me down 1959 Sears Silvertone with only 18 frets. I had to transpose a lot of solos to compensate for a lack of frets.

My lack of any kind of education in music gave rise to my Neanderthal playing style and bizarre musical compositions with unusual time signatures. I've had 4 guitar lessons in my entire life and they only served to confuse and discourage me.

I'm certainly no virtuoso, but an excellent ear, good timing and team player attitude has kept me steadily employed in the music industry.
 
Robert Herndon said:
I have humble roots in music. I grew up struggling with ASD and everything just came really hard for me, especially from a musical perspective. The only reason I can play at all is sheer force of will. There is zero skill involved.

My main guitar, from the time I was 15 until I was 19, was a hand me down 1959 Sears Silvertone with only 18 frets. I had to transpose a lot of solos to compensate for a lack of frets.

My lack of any kind of education in music gave rise to my Neanderthal playing style and bizarre musical compositions with unusual time signatures. I've had 4 guitar lessons in my entire life and they only served to confuse and discourage me.

I'm certainly no virtuoso, but an excellent ear, good timing and team player attitude has kept me steadily employed in the music industry.
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You can't fake "heart"

People see- hear through that type of thing. When I hear you play, you translate yourself through the guitar, I can tell.

Some people play guitar for the chicks- lol, some for the recognition, some for the party.

Some of us play because we have to, if that makes any kind of sense!
 
steveb63 said:
You can't fake "heart"

People see- hear through that type of thing. When I hear you play, you translate yourself through the guitar, I can tell.
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Couldn’t agree more about faking heart. The example that pretty much always comes to my mind would be REO Speedwagon and Gary Richrath. Being an Illinois boy, they are my local rock band (and of course Styx and Cheap Trick). Gary played with heart. The guys that have come after play all the same notes..... but it ain’t the same to my ears.
 
iblive said:
Couldn’t agree more about faking heart. The example that pretty much always comes to my mind would be REO Speedwagon and Gary Richrath. Being an Illinois boy, they are my local rock band (and of course Styx and Cheap Trick). Gary played with heart. The guys that have come after play all the same notes..... but it ain’t the same to my ears.
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Saw those boys play at the old Waukegan Roller Rink and the JM Club on Greenwood ave in Waukegan.

Mid to late seventies, Gary was a rockstar then!

He's also the reason there were no 59 Les Paul's anywhere left in the Midwest, lol.
 
steveb63 said:
You can't fake "heart"

People see- hear through that type of thing. When I hear you play, you translate yourself through the guitar, I can tell.

Some people play guitar for the chicks- lol, some for the recognition, some for the party.

Some of us play because we have to, if that makes any kind of sense!
Click to expand...
I knew kids in school that began playing around the same time as I had began to start playing. Id say at least 90% of them did it because at that time, it was popular and trendy to start a band and play awful poppy alternative stuff. They had the image right, with the whole skater/slacker approach but largely, within a little over a year , they scrapped their instruments and never touched one again as far I know.

There were others though that didnt fit into trends or wanted to be popular. They got instruments and practiced them religiously, becoming really good. They would sometimes later form bands, some never did, but every one of them i know, STILL play to this day.

The difference between the two, was love of the music and the instrument itself.
 
Clockworkmike said:
I knew kids in school that began playing around the same time as I had began to start playing. Id say at least 90% of them did it because at that time, it was popular and trendy to start a band and play awful poppy alternative stuff. They had the image right, with the whole skater/slacker approach but largely, within a little over a year , they scrapped their instruments and never touched one again as far I know.

There were others though that didnt fit into trends or wanted to be popular. They got instruments and practiced them religiously, becoming really good. They would sometimes later form bands, some never did, but every one of them i know, STILL play to this day.

The difference between the two, was love of the music and the instrument itself.
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Good observations. I couldn't agree more. I've never stopped...but I've never really become a better player either. I'm really just a musical Neanderthal, but my style - i like to think - is very authentic.

Robert 1984.jpg

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Robert Herndon said:
Good observations. I couldn't agree more. I've never stopped...but I've never really become a better player either. I'm really just a musical Neanderthal, but my style - i like to think - is very authentic.

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And thats all that matters in the end: be genuine and real! Play because there's something down inside you that you need to express. Play angry, play sorrowful, play joyously, play focused, play scattered but play because you NEED to get that out. Music should be both therapeutic and cathartic. When everything around you is all wrong, it can be your saving grace. If someone follows that concept, then you've made it as far as Im concerned
 
Clockworkmike said:
I knew kids in school that began playing around the same time as I had began to start playing. Id say at least 90% of them did it because at that time, it was popular and trendy to start a band and play awful poppy alternative stuff. They had the image right, with the whole skater/slacker approach but largely, within a little over a year , they scrapped their instruments and never touched one again as far I know.

There were others though that didnt fit into trends or wanted to be popular. They got instruments and practiced them religiously, becoming really good. They would sometimes later form bands, some never did, but every one of them i know, STILL play to this day.

The difference between the two, was love of the music and the instrument itself.
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Funny you would say this. You’re the same age as my youngest. He and several of his HS classmates started up a garage band. Did mostly their own music.... original stuff. Also did covers of groups like Green Day and Blink. They were actually pretty good. A little rough around the edges, but that’s to be expected just getting started. Then of course. Life happens. Kids go to college in all corners of the country. Band just kind of drifted apart. But it was sure fun for this dad for the couple years they were making music together.
 
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iblive said:
Funny you would say this. You’re the same age as my youngest. He and several of his HS classmates started up a garage band. Did mostly their own music.... original stuff. Also did covers of groups like Green Day and Blink. They were actually pretty good. A little rough around the edges, but that’s to be expected just getting started. Then of course. Life happens. Kids go to college in all corners of the country. Band just kind of drifted apart. But it was sure fun for this dad for the couple years they were making music together.
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I think that because I grew up in the music life/industry (through my Mom) that I just became a part of music, as opposed to music becoming a part of me...
 
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