School me on high gain amps vs classic rock amps

jtcnj

jtcnj

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I dont really understand high gain.
I have Tweed / Brown Princeton clones, 18w TMB clone, a Silkn that most claim to be - 2 channels - Fender Blackface and Marshall 2204 / JCM800 (I think the models are right) - amps that get pretty dirty when you crank them and then hit the front end hard with PAF or a bit hotter HB, and / or boost / OD pedals.

I have distortion pedals - RAT, Dano Daddy 'O (Guv'nor clone), Dano Fab distortion that get compressed and very dirty (and muddy) into a mostly clean amp.
And milder "transparent" OD pedals, etc. - I am comfortable with what I understand them to be.

These are mostly classic rock / electric blues type deals, except at higher drive settings seem "high gain" to me.
But not really the real thing.

I am not trying to make my current equipment be something it is not; rather I always look to expand my knowledge base.


What is metal today?
What is metal from early 80's Iron Maiden / Judas Priest, etc. compared to later / today and back into say mid 70's classic / harder rock?

What amps typify these generalizations?

Please Help,

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Jtcnj,

I am, by no means and expert, but I have been narrowing down groups of amplifiers in an effort to get me the tone I am seeking without pedals. I have also bought a few amps and found out - the hard way - what does and does not work for me.

The Marshall DSL40C is a great classic rock amp. It delivers a very classic kind of overdrive - much like AC/DC in nature, but when pushed into higher gain settings, it gets muddy and undefined. However, for classic rock such as Zeppelin, AC/DC, etc., it's tough to beat.

For me, and my own style, I would say my tone is somewhere between Ratt's Robin Crosby and Chuck Schuldiner of Death. To get that tone I need very high gain settings, but I also need the clarity to make the palm muted F# passages stay very tight, focused and dynamic.

Lately, I've played a lot of amps on this quest and - thus far - the only one that really delivers this for me are the Marshall Valvestates (single tube pre-amp, SS power amp) from the 1990's. I am currently using my owned-since-new 1997 Valvestate VS265 2x12 Stereo Chorus Combo, although it's a heavy beast to lug around at almost 70 pounds, the crystal clear 'chug' at high gain and high volume just cannot be beat, to my ears anyways.

Additionally, they produce abundant gain without the need for an overdrive or boost pedal.

I currently have a line on a Valvestate 8040 2x12 (to replace my aging 1997 VS265 as my main stage amp) a AVT50 1x12 combo for practice and a AVT 150 head for my pair of Jackson 4X12 cabinets. I feel like this - while seemingly overkill - is a carfeully planned approach with each amp covering a specific need, yet all sounding very much the same.

Metal has really changed over the years and to me, the tone has become highly processed with active pickups, amp simulators and that sort of thing. I prefer the rawness, noise and dynamics that can only seem to come from an amplifier. I just prefer the old fashioned way of doing things I suppose???

I hope this at least helps on one small facet of the tonal spectrum....
 
I am a huge fan of modern high-gain, channel-switching amps. Basically the kind of amps that players use for Metal and other modern high-gain sounds. I've found that when you have more usable gain than you could possibly need it makes the amp much more versatile than other amp formats. Just speaking specifically about my Mesa Mk 5, just in the green channel I have tweed sounds, black/silverface sounds/early Marshallesque sounds/classic metal Marshallesque sounds/even some Voxey stuff. Then in the red channel I have all the best of modern sounds in three modes and, again, more usable gain available than a reasonable person could ever use (for modern metal tones I am only around noon-one o'clock). It's a lot easier to dial back gain than to add gain to a more vintage-style amp, and a good amp will allow you to control everything from the guitar's volume knob. I don't need to crank it to have any tone I want either, and in my experience an amp designed with a high-gain preamp responds differently than an amp designed with lower gain potential that has a dirt box in front of it. I just think there is no substitute for the amp making the dirt...even the very best high-gain pedals fail to give you the kind of response and detail that a well-designed cascading gain tube preamp will.

In my mind there are a lot more differences between these types of amps and "vintage" or "classic" amp styles than just the amount of gain available too. The amps are voiced differently and typically add features and use components designed to help make modern sounds. Obviously effects loops, but also stuff like onboard graphic EQ, switchable power levels, multiple modes in the channels, much greater sweep of the tone controls, truly useful master volumes, midi control, direct XLR balanced output, etc. And something else that I think sets a modern metal amp apart from, say, a mid-'80's JCM-800 (an amp wtih ample gain but not something I would refer to as "high gain") is they are tighter. Meaning the low end holds together better and pushes air through the speaker cabinet more efficiently. These amps were designed from day one for lower tunings and the circuits (most importantly the output tranny) are built to cope with it and keep the bottom end controlled. There is nothing I hate more than a loose low end on an amp - when I had an 800 the bass was mush at high gain/volume settings. My Mesas just thump through a sealed-back cabinet.
 
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Robert Herndon said:
Metal has really changed over the years and to me, the tone has become highly processed with active pickups, amp simulators and that sort of thing. I prefer the rawness, noise and dynamics that can only seem to come from an amplifier. I just prefer the old fashioned way of doing things I suppose???
Click to expand...

Not old fashioned in my mind. The big change that I see my friends who record (metal/hard rock) professionally have made in the last 10-15 years is they rarely mic a speaker cabinet any more. They still plug into a guitar head, but now the head is going direct to the console, usually through the amp's internal load box but for amps that don't have them an outboard one. I think a lot of guys don't view losing the "tone" of the speaker and cab as as tradeoff either...they are getting the more pure sound of the guitar and amp this way and bypassing the variable of the mic placement and room acoustics.
 
HERE-- is what I know --- which isnt much -- but---
A "Modern high gain" amp -- at least -- well MINE-- (MESA F30) -- can do GAIN---- but you can also run it on the clean channel for clean OR (w/ pedals) old school vintage tones

so to me its the best of both worlds----

but thats not much "schooling:"
 
gball said:
Not old fashioned in my mind. The big change that I see my friends who record (metal/hard rock) professionally have made in the last 10-15 years is they rarely mic a speaker cabinet any more. They still plug into a guitar head, but now the head is going direct to the console, usually through the amp's internal load box but for amps that don't have them an outboard one. I think a lot of guys don't view losing the "tone" of the speaker and cab as as tradeoff either...they are getting the more pure sound of the guitar and amp this way and bypassing the variable of the mic placement and room acoustics.
Click to expand...

Yes! Good Points!
 
gball said:
In my mind there are a lot more differences between these types of amps and "vintage" or "classic" amp styles than just the amount of gain available too. The amps are voiced differently and typically add features and use components designed to help make modern sounds. Obviously effects loops, but also stuff like onboard graphic EQ, switchable power levels, multiple modes in the channels, much greater sweep of the tone controls, truly useful master volumes, midi control, direct XLR balanced output, etc. And something else that I think sets a modern metal amp apart from, say, a mid-'80's JCM-800 (an amp wtih ample gain but not something I would refer to as "high gain") is they are tighter. Meaning the low end holds together better and pushes air through the speaker cabinet more efficiently. These amps were designed from day one for lower tunings and the circuits (most importantly the output tranny) are built to cope with it and keep the bottom end controlled. There is nothing I hate more than a loose low end on an amp - when I had an 800 the bass was mush at high gain/volume settings. My Mesas just thump through a sealed-back cabinet.
Click to expand...


Definitely!!!!!
 
gball said:
And something else that I think sets a modern metal amp apart from, say, a mid-'80's JCM-800 (an amp wtih ample gain but not something I would refer to as "high gain") is they are tighter.
Click to expand...

Excellent thanks for the replies.
The above statement is what got me thinking more about this as I was reading some Marshall history.
 
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