Tonewood v Semi-Hollow

RVA said:
I am not a believer in tonewood contributing to a guitar's sound, but rather feel that a guitar gets it's tone from the pickups and everything after the guitar signal is sent out from there. However, I cannot help thinking I hear the influence of semi-hollow guitar construction in tone, despite the fact that it should follow the same principle I mention above.

Anyone care to venture an opinion as to whether there is a difference, or I whether I am just hearing what my mind thinks I should hear when playing a semi-hollow guitar?
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The sound comes from the wood.
It's not the pickups or the electronics that is responsible.
If you have a dead piece of wood, no matter what pickups (or anything else) it will still sound like crap.
Many people have been functioning with the mistaken belief that the wood doesn't matter....but actually the wood is everything.

If you still don't believe me, build a Les Paul out of particle board and put $10,000 dollar pickups on it. It will sound like crap.

Build a Les Paul out of solid rock maple: it will be totally dead, no sustain at all, dull and lifeless. The Gibson L6-S is living proof of this. It don't matter what pickups or electronics.

Pick up vendors want you to believe that the wood doesn't matter......but if you have a dead wood guitar, no matter what pickups it will still sound 100% dead.
 
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Amp Mad Scientist said:
The sound comes from the wood.
It's not the pickups or the electronics that is responsible.
If you have a dead piece of wood, no matter what pickups (or anything else) it will still sound like crap.
Many people have been functioning with the mistaken belief that the wood doesn't matter....but actually the wood is everything.

If you still don't believe me, build a Les Paul out of particle board and put $10,000 dollar pickups on it. It will sound like crap.

Build a Les Paul out of solid rock maple: it will be totally dead, no sustain at all, dull and lifeless. The Gibson L6-S is living proof of this. It don't matter what pickups or electronics.

Pick up vendors want you to believe that the wood doesn't matter......but if you have a dead wood guitar, no matter what pickups it will still sound 100% dead.
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My view:

Starting with Les Paul's log and looking at the myriad of videos of guitars made of various substances, I respectfully disagee. I am yet to see anyone do a blind test of a guitar and tell the wood type, or even if it is wood at all. I would made this challenge to Paul Reed Smith, Tom Anderson, Leo Fender and Les Paul all in a room together conferring and I bet thet would do no better than random. There are a bunch of blind tests under controlled conditions on YouTube. Everyone seems to do poorly and then blame the methodology.

As an alternative to your $10,000 pickup idea, how about putting the same pickups in guitars made of a variety of woods and have a tonewood expert blindly guess the wood construction.

I no longer worry about this. Whatever gets you playing better is what matters. I know I have a bunch of guitars of various materials and they all sound like me when I play them.
 
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Here’s a pretty good video.

Not only do you hear the results, but it shows the resultant waveform.

 
This topic back again... :)

I find it difficult to believe that people don't believe in tonewoods, but that's their right.

When I hear exactly the same teles, one with a maple board and one with a rosewood board, they sound very different to me. Also, you can have exactly the same SGs, but one with a chunkier neck and the sound changes. The sound off the neck is significant to my ears.

But, that has to be put in perspective: the amp has much more effect; pedals have much more effect; the pickups (on a guitar that is basically fine) have a much bigger effect; the player has a much bigger effect; the setup has a much bigger effect; the weight, size and shape of the guitar and how comfortable the player is with the guitar has a bigger effect; the player's mood has a bigger effect - the list goes on.

Again, to my ears, the finish has a huge effect, so I don't like thick poly finishes, I prefer a thin nitro or a satin finish - now this is a complex one because it affects feel and playability which affects sound, but I'm convinced that thick poly goop deadens sound waves.

Every single decision in a guitar affects the sound. The type of saddles affect the sound, the bridge and tailpiece affects the sound (yes, even after string break...), the nut really affects the sound, the string tension affects the sound (it must, we're talking waves that are picked up by a magnet - the movement upsets the magnetic field/induction in different ways and must change the sound...), the list goes on (the thickness of the string affects the sound).

Does the wood and the wood coating affect the sound? Of course it does, how could it not, that would be defying physics. Is it the most important element that affects sound? Nope.
 
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So, a couple of years ago I posed the whole tonewood question to my second son, who has his masters degree in mechanical engineering. I first asked him if he had studied vibration in school. He responded, “Of course...quite a bit.”

So, I asked him if he thought the wood a guitar is made from could affect vibrations in the guitar.

His answer was both satisfying and disappointing.

He said, “It has to. You cannot change the nature of a key component of any physical system without affecting the vibrational characteristics of that system. But, whether or not that difference is significant enough to translate into something you can hear is a different matter.”

So....back to square one!
 
RVA said:
My view:

Starting with Les Paul's log and looking at the myriad of videos of guitars made of various substances, I respectfully disagee. I am yet to see anyone do a blind test of a guitar and tell the wood type, or even if it is wood at all. I would made this challenge to Paul Reed Smith, Tom Anderson, Leo Fender and Les Paul all in a room together conferring and I bet thet would do no better than random. There are a bunch of blind tests under controlled conditions on YouTube. Everyone seems to do poorly and then blame the methodology.

As an alternative to your $10,000 pickup idea, how about putting the same pickups in guitars made of a variety of woods and have a tonewood expert blindly guess the wood construction.

I no longer worry about this. Whatever gets you playing better is what matters. I know I have a bunch of guitars of various materials and they all sound like me when I play them.
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I do hear differences. It would be better if they mentioned at least something about how it was conducted. I went to the referenced website, but could not find the details on the experiment. I did not look very hard though!
 
smitty_p said:
So, a couple of years ago I posed the whole tonewood question to my second son, who has his masters degree in mechanical engineering. I first asked him if he had studied vibration in school. He responded, “Of course...quite a bit.”

So, I asked him if he thought the wood a guitar is made from could affect vibrations in the guitar.

His answer was both satisfying and disappointing.

He said, “It has to. You cannot change the nature of a key component of any physical system without affecting the vibrational characteristics of that system. But, whether or not that difference is significant enough to translate into something you can hear is a different matter.”

So....back to square one!
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That makes sense to me. It does fly in the face of the experiment you posted though.
 
smitty_p said:
How so?
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My recollection of the ultimate conclusion of the below statement, based on a prior post you made about this assertion, is that it is not significant enough to be discerned.

"But, whether or not that difference is significant enough to translate into something you can hear is a different matter.”

It sounds like that is what it means. Did he mean that it is able to be heard? If so, when?
 
I have come to the belief (promoted by astute scholars of the muse) anything that alters the strings vibration (and there are 1 million things that can affect and effect that in a guitar-- and the space in and around the guitar on any given guitar) start from the string itself and let the listing blossom out ward to the thickness of the fingers playing it-- callouses... do they effect it????is tone altered literally by the density of the air in the room -- or the outdoors-- or...is a SMOKE filled Dank Bar how SRV got his TONE -- ??? was it different at Mantreaux outdoors than in his garage back home in Texas? (Im guessing yes)--- -is the TONE we seak not possible since much of the tone we all like was recorded in the 70's on equipment that is outdated obsolete or not used -- analog vs digital vs ---whatever is more than that --

look its infinite--

then factor in the electronics beyond that ORGANIC realm of metal and wood that make up the guitar and you add in another INFINITE realm of possibility-- from the electricity (volts amps blah blah) the type of wire or filler in the caps or the .......potentiometers-- cabinet wood speaker....ugh

and then factor the "rig" -- pedals and .....boosters and DISTORTIONS......

and what you have is an endless argument for what makes this or that persons/instruments tone different---

I say plug the damn thing in and play and get on with it -- lifes too short to look at pie charts on whose wood is bigger (mine is so just be quiet ;))
there.

NOw if your board go to a motorcycle forum and start an WHICH OIL should i use THREAD ------ its about as fun -- and often times borderline violent....


In closing if anyone has a guitar with substandard wood -- or they dont like the wood etc...... PM me and Ill take it off your hands and dispose of it properlike ;)


that was a LONG walk to solicit free gear---
 
RVA said:
My recollection of the ultimate conclusion of the below statement, based on a prior post you made about this assertion, is that it is not significant enough to be discerned.

"But, whether or not that difference is significant enough to translate into something you can hear is a different matter.”

It sounds like that is what it means. Did he mean that it is able to be heard? If so, when?
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Neither. His point was simply that our ability to hear a difference is a different matter from the question of whether any vibrational changes actually occur. He wasn’t saying you would hear a difference or that you wouldn’t hear a difference. Rather, these are two separate questions.

Essentially, there are two topics.

First, would there be a change in vibrational characteristics? He postulated that there would be.

Second, can we hear the difference in those vibrational changes with our human hearing? He wouldn’t say. He just left it as being a different consideration - the idea being it requires its own testing.

That’s why I said we’re back at square one!
 
I don't have enough guitars to research this conundrum. Must buy more guitars.

But seriously. As previously stated. Tone wood plus shape is everything to an acoustic. Even MY untrained ear can hear (and frankly, feel) the difference in a $200 laminated guitar and a $2000 Taylor/Martin/Gibson/Etc. Based on my small sampling of electric guitars I own, I'm not sure I can. Sure... the HB guitars have a different sound than do the single coils..... but beyond that?????
:electric:More research needed on my part. Must play more guitar.
 
My three Les Pauls all have the same pickups and identical wiring. I can still hear slight differences in them. No one else probably can because they don't live with them on a daily basis. No idea why this is. Now, I can play one of the LPs, my SG and my V and they are all distinctively different. An SG does not sound the same as a Les Paul even with identical components. The SG sounds livelier for lack of a better word. The V is just a little darker than the SG and a LP is quite a bit darker. This could be a mass thing vs. type of wood. I don't know. And if you play a Fender and a Gibson side by side unplugged there is a drastic difference in volume and tone. The Fender is fairly subdued and dull sounding whereas the Gibson will be quite a bit louder and more lively. Just my .02 dollars worth.
 
smitty_p said:
Neither. His point was simply that our ability to hear a difference is a different matter from the question of whether any vibrational changes actually occur. He wasn’t saying you would hear a difference or that you wouldn’t hear a difference. Rather, these are two separate questions.

Essentially, there are two topics.

First, would there be a change in vibrational characteristics? He postulated that there would be.

Second, can we hear the difference in those vibrational changes with our human hearing? He wouldn’t say. He just left it as being a different consideration - the idea being it requires its own testing.

That’s why I said we’re back at square one!
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My undergraduate degree was in electronic engineering, and I've always loved sound, hi-fi and guitars.

The first point your son made, I fully agree.

The second point your son made, I don't disagree. It's subjective, we are human beings and have different neurocortical 'specializations'/trends (call it what you want). I think my hearing is really good, I've always relied on that as my major sense at night, etc. My wife, her hearing is not so good. Her eye sight is probably not as good as mine either (I'm probably a tad over average in that department). Her sense of smell blows me away, it's so much better than mine. Tactile-wise, we are different again, but it's harder to define. Humans are complex. I try to study, research and understand stuff related to human beings in their environment and their cognitive biases (or some such word) - it's bloody difficult, I have some opinions which I can't well back up, but I don't know...
 
Take Angus for example. I listened to Highway to Hell on the way to work this morning. After you are familiar with what he uses for equipment it becomes completely obvious that his tone/sound/whatever is an SG into an early style Marshall 4 holer. That combination cranked up loud makes that tone. Change it to a Les Paul and it will not sound the same. Kind of the same When Pete plays an ES 335. You can hear what it is.
 
I would but Im not allowed to leave Florida ---- only do it once per decade and I had to go to NC for work (boss made me) back in Nov. so----you have to wait 118 months now---
Sorry ---
 
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