Thinking Outloud on Tuning:

Inspector #20

Inspector #20

Ambassador of Tone
Fallen Star
Country flag
Although I sing lead on quite a few of our numbers, my main role in this band is rhythm support. I've been quietly watching our string section members with regards to tuning.

The 1976 Les Paul is getting tuned between every song, as is the bandleaders' 2015 Gibson Firebird. I can hear some of the notes going out in the middle of these songs.

I remember my disastrous public performance in direct sunlight on September 7, 2019 in Crestline, California, where I couldn't get my 2016 Gibson Les Paul 50's Tribute through one song without tuning issues.

Last night, it was cold at 6,000 feet and it took a while to get the guitars acclimated to the temperatures, but this is a trend I have been watching for a while now and its a consistent anomaly both in the rehearsal studio and the garage.

Alternating between my Les Paul's, I would say it was necessary for me to tune between each song to keep my open chords sounding correct. I don't mind this, but I'm finding it really distracting.

In my studio, my guitars can be wailed on for weeks and never go out of tune, but outdoors is another story altogether.

I haven't played my Schecter Hellraiser C1FR in quite some time, but when I pulled it out of its case, it was dead on the money. I played it for the second run-through of our setlist and never had to retune it.

I'm really considering my Schecter Hellraiser for Saturday's outdoor performance with my Jackson San Dimas FR as a backup.

I just feel more "engaged" when I'm not constantly tuning.

Anybody ever experience this....????
 
My observations of many outside gigs in all kinds of weather over the years.. mainly a set neck player... but bolt on neck is the way to go with radical climate changes. Bolt on with locking sysytem..yes . If we do the ouside summer stuff next year..more than likely Hamer Diablo, & Ibanez RG & Washburn G2V all locked in at dif tuning. It won't be exact what am used to tone wise but sure are great players that you beat the heck out of & the tuning stays. Inside gigs will be the V's & Gibson's.
 
My guitars at home stay pretty much in tune as well...... to themselves. It does seem with temp and humidity change they do go off. But odd this is. They all 6 go off about the same amount whether that be sharp or flat.

Playing at church like I did I pretty much exclusively played my Ovation acoustic. Using the gauge strings I have on that thing, once I got it tuned after the ride from home to church.... it pretty much stayed the rest of the morning. Since we usually had two services, between them I’d check it just before 2nd service. It was usually still spot on.
 
I still believe it comes down to one thing: setup. I know we all like to think our guitars are immaculately set up, but I see/know people who tour the world playing outdoor gigs in all imaginable conditions and they don't have such extreme tuning problems.

And on the setup subject, I do think a lot of people play the wrong gauge strings. From my observations the average player chooses a gauge at some point in their life and just sticks with it, and sometimes (maybe a lot of times) a heavier or lighter set may suit that person's style of play better. I'm guilty of it myself: In all honesty I keep using 10's for the feel even though I quite objectively know from my own experience that 9's both sound better and hold tune better for me. If I ever started gigging again I would most certainly switch all my guitars, at lest the ones I used for playing out, over to 9's.
 
gball said:
I still believe it comes down to one thing: setup. I know we all like to think our guitars are immaculately set up, but I see/know people who tour the world playing outdoor gigs in all imaginable conditions and they don't have such extreme tuning problems.

And on the setup subject, I do think a lot of people play the wrong gauge strings. From my observations the average player chooses a gauge at some point in their life and just sticks with it, and sometimes (maybe a lot of times) a heavier or lighter set may suit that person's style of play better. I'm guilty of it myself: In all honesty I keep using 10's for the feel even though I quite objectively know from my own experience that 9's both sound better and hold tune better for me. If I ever started gigging again I would most certainly switch all my guitars, at lest the ones I used for playing out, over to 9's.
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Been using 9s and 10s on my electrics. For decades I used 13s on my acoustic. My youngest “borrowed” my guitar for a few years while he was in college. When I got it back it had 12s on it. Liked them. Used that gauge since.
 
gball said:
I still believe it comes down to one thing: setup. I know we all like to think our guitars are immaculately set up, but I see/know people who tour the world playing outdoor gigs in all imaginable conditions and they don't have such extreme tuning problems.

And on the setup subject, I do think a lot of people play the wrong gauge strings. From my observations the average player chooses a gauge at some point in their life and just sticks with it, and sometimes (maybe a lot of times) a heavier or lighter set may suit that person's style of play better. I'm guilty of it myself: In all honesty I keep using 10's for the feel even though I quite objectively know from my own experience that 9's both sound better and hold tune better for me. If I ever started gigging again I would most certainly switch all my guitars, at lest the ones I used for playing out, over to 9's.
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I posed this question today to our group here at the studio and they (session players) pretty much confirmed my experience saying they all have a love-hate relationship with the Gibson Les Paul.

One of our colleagues has a 1970 Gibson Les Paul setup by Dan Erlewine personally and he has the same issues that I have with mine and I would think Erlewine can perform a good setup???

He said "I can put it in the case and not touch it for two weeks, pull it out and its always sharp, and the same amount on all six strings..."

Exact same thing with mine. Same behavior even after changing nut material. I'm using the published Gibson spec on nut dimensions, which is .004" larger than your string, but I've also experimented with going as wide as .010" over the string width with absolutely no change.

Good point on strings...I tend to stick with .009 x .046, and I've tried Labelle, Boomers and D'addario with the same results.

The .009 x .046" just feels right to me...no other scientific justification.
 
BFT Gibson said:
My observations of many outside gigs in all kinds of weather over the years.. mainly a set neck player... but bolt on neck is the way to go with radical climate changes. Bolt on with locking sysytem..yes . If we do the ouside summer stuff next year..more than likely Hamer Diablo, & Ibanez RG & Washburn G2V all locked in at dif tuning. It won't be exact what am used to tone wise but sure are great players that you beat the heck out of & the tuning stays. Inside gigs will be the V's & Gibson's.
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Both my Floyd Rose guitars just stay in ridiculous tune.

Go figure...
 
syscokid said:
Does anybody think or believe that guitars with maple necks are less problematic? I do!!!
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Hmmm...good question. My 1987 Squire Stratocaster stayed in perfect tune always. Maple neck with rosewood board...

My Indonesian Jackson...ugly-ass maple neck...perfect tune.

Both my Schecter's stay in tune perfectly with 5 piece mahogany necks...Go figure.

I can play my Les Paul's (including the 2016 Gibson Les Paul 50's Tribute i traded to Spectre) for a month in my studio without having to adjust the tuning. But outdoors last night, I was forced to tune between every song in the set...
 
Nothing more frustrating than playing live with a guitar that won't stay in tune. That said I don't have that problem with any of my guitars, even my Godin 12 string and Gibson SG stay in tune. Just lucky I guess. I have had guitars which don't but they don't stay around for long. They all go out of tune due to weather and temperature changes. When I'm playing live, not once since COVID, I try to arrive early, tune the guitar and let it sit until just before I go on stage. I tune it again and it usually stays in tune. If it's really cold or really hot sometime I'll have to tune after the firat song. Sometimes after a break as well. This is why I like poly tune stomp box tuners that mute the signal. In the middle of a song stomp on the tuner and strum all the strings. You can see instantly which strings are out of tune, silently tune them, then start playing again. Nothing kills a show like a guitar player who is constantly tuning his guitar after every song with the sound turned up.
 
Kerry Brown said:
Nothing more frustrating than playing live with a guitar that won't stay in tune. That said I don't have that problem with any of my guitars, even my Godin 12 string and Gibson SG stay in tune. Just lucky I guess. I have had guitars which don't but they don't stay around for long. They all go out of tune due to weather and temperature changes. When I'm playing live, not once since COVID, I try to arrive early, tune the guitar and let it sit until just before I go on stage. I tune it again and it usually stays in tune. If it's really cold or really hot sometime I'll have to tune after the firat song. Sometimes after a break as well. This is why I like poly tune stomp box tuners that mute the signal. In the middle of a song stomp on the tuner and strum all the strings. You can see instantly which strings are out of tune, silently tune them, then start playing again. Nothing kills a show like a guitar player who is constantly tuning his guitar after every song with the sound turned up.
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I broke 3 picks last night. Literally took the edges right off of them. On songs like "You Oughta Know," I am hitting the guitar incredibly hard. My Korg Pitchblack tuner mutes the signal and it's visible on a dark stage, so I can tune in silence...I just don't want to be doing it...
 
I love how my Les Paul-style guitars sound, but the tuning issues caused me to pull out my Purple Schecter Hellraiser C1FR and my Jackson San Dimas FR as a backup.

I'll have one of the Les Paul's in reserve for an encore performance...
 
Over the years I've generally had better tuning stability from Les Pauls than from Strats. Except for Floyds, of course, which are always rock steady.

A lot of it lies in good setup IMO, and stretching the strings really well. Some players don't stretch as thoroughly but I find it pretty important.
Onstage, strings never have more than a few hours on them in my case - my sweat's very corrosive so I keep close track of the flight hours.
That might make a difference.

Temperature variations are kind of a wild card. In recent years for any outdoor shows I stick with a couple of PRS that've proven to be very stable.
I've had certain guitars - like a metal necked Kramer - which became unusable after any significant temperature change.
 
iblive said:
My guitars at home stay pretty much in tune as well...... to themselves. It does seem with temp and humidity change they do go off. But odd this is. They all 6 go off about the same amount whether that be sharp or flat.
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This is my experience as well, they all go out of tune together and the strings on each still maintain their relative tunings quite well.

I don't play out enough to know anything else and when I do I usually just transport the guitar between th e house and the car, the car and whereve I play.
 
eclecticsynergy said:
Over the years I've generally had better tuning stability from Les Pauls than from Strats. Except for Floyds, of course, which are always rock steady.

A lot of it lies in good setup IMO, and stretching the strings really well. Some players don't stretch as thoroughly but I find it pretty important.
Onstage, strings never have more than a few hours on them in my case - my sweat's very corrosive so I keep close track of the flight hours.
That might make a difference.

Temperature variations are kind of a wild card. In recent years for any outdoor shows I stick with a couple of PRS that've proven to be very stable.
I've had certain guitars - like a metal necked Kramer - which became unusable after any significant temperature change.
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Interesting!!!

My experience has been the opposite. I never run brand new strings at a performance. I always have a rehersal or two on them before using them at a performance.

My frequent use of open chords/diads really amplifies even the slightest tuning Anomalies, so my sensitivity to this is super high...
 
eclecticsynergy said:
Temperature variations are kind of a wild card. In recent years for any outdoor shows I stick with a couple of PRS that've proven to be very stable.
I've had certain guitars - like a metal necked Kramer - which became unusable after any significant temperature change.
Click to expand...

Temperatures wreak havoc on my Les Paul-style guitars...however, the fake Les Paul's are more stable than my real Gibson's were!!!!!
 
marshalltsl said:
IMHO the guitar and nut setup are critical factors to get a stable strings tuning.
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I've wrestled with that for years. I even went "to school" with Wayne Charvel to learn about setup. I've also experimented with making nut width wider by nearly .010" (admittedly excessive) with no effect on tuning stability.

Its temperature.

I can tune a guitar and once the sun hits it, all bets are off.

I've conducted experiments myself putting Les Paul's in the sun and monitoring the tuning. They ALL go sharp without ever touching them. (Long thread about this)

And my Genuine Gibson's were far worse about tuning animals than my replicas.

I've used locking tuners, Grovers, different strings, you name it. The devil is in the wood. Its in the construction of the guitar itself...and anything that copies that construction methodology.

My Floyd Rose equipped guitars stay rock solid even at +120°F fretboard temps.

I work with a colleague who has a 1970 Gibson Les Paul - set up by Dan Erlewine himself - and he does not use it anywhere but in the studio because of tuning instability, so I would think a Dan Erlewine setup is "correct."

I'm just quietly going back to Les Paul's in the studio and either a Schecter or Jackson for outdoor performances...

For years, Kirk Hammett played Les Paul's on recordings, but never used them live. There's a documentary where you can see everyone playing old Gibson's.

I've also heard an interview where he talks about Gary Moore's 1959 Les Paul giving him "fits" with regards to tuning...
 
syscokid said:
Does anybody think or believe that guitars with maple necks are less problematic? I do!!!
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I do. Every Norlin-era/maple necked Les Paul I've owned has been absurdly stable concerning both tuning and setup. I tweak the truss-rod on them once a year at most. Sometimes they'll go years without really needing it.

I had an SGJ for a while and that too was incredibly stable.
 
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