The Low Output / High Gain Discussion Thread:

Yargnad said:
Yep, I've always been a low gain pickup/amp/pedal guy. Every time I've picked up a high gain beast it feels over the top and uninspiring, like all it wants to do is breathe fire. I need to be able to seamlessly move between dirt and clean on the guitar knob without having to adjust the mix too much across the timeline. I like dynamics, so balls to the walls doesn't normally do it for me. That's not to say that I don't like it when others use those hot tones, but it's just not for me.
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It's requiring me to completely alter my rig and all my settings, so it's kind of intimidating.
 
So much depends on the rest of your signal chain and the way that gain is built through its various stages.

Your various hot-rodded Marshall and Fender amps - which are the basis for your high-gain Peaveys, Mesas, etc etc - respond well to high-output pickups and basically rely on being pushed by a hot input signal of some kind, be it active or passive.

Set ups based around fuzz pedals etc - especially germanium fuzzes - like a weaker signal. Most old fuzzes like the Tone Bender don't like any kind of buffer in front of them at all. For those a PAF humbucker or Strat single coil often produces the best results. A lot of stoner rock relies on weak pickups with kranked fuzz pedals.

Personally I like medium-hot passive pickups and a clean boost into a high-gain Peavey tube amp.
 
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67plexi said:
I don't know if it had nibs or not the point was a real 1957 PAF compared to 2015 production Custom Shop what was the sound difference
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Thanks, Steve. I read your intended message. But now that I read it in your reply, I see what you are saying HERE.

The nibs statement from me was I saw what appears to be full frets over binding on the 57. My 2010 Epiphone LP Std has a neck that is that way. But my SG Classic has the nibs and shorter frets that stop at the edge of the wood. Of course it also has P90's.
 
Robert Herndon said:
It's evolving, that's for sure...
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​

"We have developed a PC-based DAQ system that enables us to measure the complex impedance Z(f) = V(f)/I(f) of electric guitar and bass pickups.​

A PC talks to an Agilent 33220A function generator via GPIB (General Purpose Instrumentation Bus) controlling its frequency (nominally 5 Hz to 20.005 KHz in 10 Hz steps) and voltage amplitude (nominally 1.0 volt). The sine-wave signal from the function generator (a near-ideal voltage source, 50 Ohm output impedance) is converted to a near-ideal constant current source, simply by sending the signal through a 1.5 meg-ohm metal film resistor. .."​

UIUC_P398EMI_Pickup_Test_Setup3_rsz.JPG


Pickup2_main_panel.jpg



I see basic problems:
No sustain test
No Chugerometer
 
Not my normal style but sometimes you just need to crank everything on full and hope for the best. Best pickup I ever used for those times was a Gibson 500T in a V through my Blackstar one watt head with everything dimed on the clean channel. The drive channel was too hard to control the feedback. I was playing through a Peavy 4x12 with unknown speakers in a friend’s garage. It was amazingly loud for one watt and easily heard in the mix with a loud drummer. The picking dynamics were incredible. At lower volume with less gain the 500T was ok but not something to brag about.
 
Robert Herndon said:
I thought this would be a fun and useful thread to discuss the "old school" methods of using relatively low output pickups in higher gain applications, (perhaps not chugging metal gain) much like our heroes did in the 60's and 70's before there were many high gain pickup options.

I thought we should first define what a low output humbucker is.

View attachment 76052

I located this article and am reposting it here: (Source -
musicalilluminism.wordpress.com

Vintage Gibson Humbucker Specs and General Pickup Tech

Vintage Gibson Humbuckers Specs: 1956 – 1957 (“PAF”): Long (2.5”) Alnico 2, 3, 4 and 5 magnets used randomly, brushed stainless steel cover, *no* PAF sticker, automatic traverse wound with manual-s…
musicalilluminism.wordpress.com musicalilluminism.wordpress.com

Vintage Gibson Humbuckers Specs:

1956 – 1957 (“PAF”): Long (2.5”) Alnico 2, 3, 4 and 5 magnets used randomly, brushed stainless steel cover, *no* PAF sticker, automatic traverse wound with manual-stop (until bobbin was “full”), #42 plain enamel wire (purple/maroon), individual coil ohm differences, black leads on coils, ohms vary from low 7k to high 9k, black PAF-style bobbins (“square in circle” with holes). PAFs first installed on Gibson lap-steels in ‘56 and then guitars in ‘57.
1957 – 1961 (“PAF”): Long Alnico 2, 3, 4 and 5 used randomly (A2 most common), nickel cover, “Patent Applied For” sticker, automatic traverse-wound with manual-stop, #42 plain enamel wire (purple/maroon), individual coil ohm differences, black leads on both coils, ohms vary greatly – generally between 7k and 10k, black and cream (early-’59 thru mid-‘60), all bobbins black again by late ’60, PAF-style pickup bobbins.

1961 – 1962 (Late “PAF”): Smaller (2.37”) Alnico 5 magnet used for remaining production (all transitioned by July ’61), nickel cover, PAF sticker, automatic traverse-wound with manual-stop, #42 plain enamel wire (purple/maroon), black leads on both coils, individual coil ohm differences, ohms averaged 8.0k by ‘62, PAF-style bobbins.

1962 – 1964 (“Patent number”): Alnico 5, nickel cover, “patent no.” sticker (mid-’62), polyurethane wire (starting ‘63), black/white lead wires, “auto-stop” winding starts circa-’62, PAF-style bobbins, usually 7.6k – 8.0k ohm.

1965 – 1967 (Late “Patent number”): Alnico 5, polyurethane wire, “patent no.” sticker, bobbin wires white, Chrome cover (starts mid-’65), more durable and flatter bobbins with no “square in circle” hole circa-‘65, ohms usually between 7.4k – 8.0k. Gold-plated PAFs used in arch-top electrics as late as 1965 – “Varitone” guitars had gold-plated pickups with one pickup having a reversed magnet. This pickup style was used far less than nickel-plated pickups, thus inventory lasted thru 1965.

1967 – 1980 (“T-top”): “T” on bobbin top, Chrome cover, Alnico 5, polyurethane wire, automated winding begins ‘65 – ‘68, some ’69 – ’73 pickup covers embossed “Gibson”, “patent no.” sticker on baseplate ’67 – ’74, (patent number metal-stamped beginning 1974), ink stamp with date ’77 – ’80, ohms average 7.5k – consistently reading between 7.3k – 8.0k.

So, from this article, it would suggest that "low output" can be defined as pickups being in the 7.0k to 8.0k ranges. While many other factors - besides DCR will determine a pickup's output - I'll suggest we use the DCR values for the purpose of this discussion.
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:io:
 
Jethro Rocker said:
As far as I see it, hot pickups are sorta like running a higher level into the amp, like running an OD with level high. A few of my guitars had very mundane, mediocre output and I do not care for them. Pushes the front of amp harder, even a high gain amp. It seems to work for me.
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That’s true, but there is more to It. The question is also of how the pickup increases its output. Increasing the output can be done by using a more powerful magnet or by adding more winds of wire on the bobbin - or both.

Increasing the number of winds on the bobbin increases resistance, which is why DC resistance is often used as a proxy value for a pickup’s output. But, increasing the number of winds also increases the inductance of the coil. Higher inductance values will negatively affect higher frequencies.

If I like the tone of my pickups, but just want to hit the amp harder, I’ll use a clean boost pedal.
 
Yargnad said:
Yep, I've always been a low gain pickup/amp/pedal guy. Every time I've picked up a high gain beast it feels over the top and uninspiring, like all it wants to do is breathe fire. I need to be able to seamlessly move between dirt and clean on the guitar knob without having to adjust the mix too much across the timeline. I like dynamics, so balls to the walls doesn't normally do it for me. That's not to say that I don't like it when others use those hot tones, but it's just not for me.
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And balls to the wall is what I like. I have some guitars with anemic pickups and they just don't do it for me. I have compared those to the higher output, not necessarily crazy high, and I much prefer the higher. 57+ isn't real high but kicks it good. 500T, SD Distortion and Invader....
 
In my experience the lower output humbuckers are less compressed sounding. So better dynamics, wider frequency range and just more open and lively. I've got different builds in all of my guitars and it makes them each better at different things. I'm ranging from about 7.3k to 10k all with 42 awg wire and Alnico 2, 3, 4, 5 and 8 magnets. I like them all.
 
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