To me, tone and volume levels are totally separate. My tone is chisled in stone. It is always where it is, I just give you more of it in a larger venue.
So....Watcha Been Eyeballin'?
- Thread starter Sapient
- Start date
To me, tone and volume levels are totally separate. My tone is chisled in stone. It is always where it is, I just give you more of it in a larger venue.
USA RR
OP
Sapient
Ambassador of Vocal Inspiration
Horrible ballpark after looking at a pic online. I'm much lower. Now I have to measure.
*edit - Mine is 0.59 at the 12th. Pretty low.
Last edited:
OP
Sapient
Ambassador of Vocal Inspiration
Jethro is very ambitious. I would never ever ever do such a thing. I'd be "room frequency deaf" anyway. Lol.
Last edited:
That's very close to where I set everything up. I shoot for .070" at the 12th.
Fender and Gibson both spec 4/64" @ the 17th with a capo on the first fret, but that happens to be exactly. 070" at the 12th unfretted.
.070" is a great balance and is likely why it's used as a factory spec. Your spec of .059" is good too.
Mike Hickey (Joe B's tech) says everything is set to .080" at the 12th, except Joe's 335's which are set to .125" at the 12th.
What I learned from working with top producers is you can fall into traps very easily when it comes to live tone.
If you listen hard enough, you'll hear whatever it is you are listening for.
I've watched bands setup and dick around with settings for 45 minutes, then spend the entire show - back to the audience - fiddling with settings.
Once you have a good EQ, it's not going to change no matter where you put it. All you need is to set your volume levels to the kick drum and you are good to go.
It took me a long time to realize these guys were right...
Last edited:
OP
Sapient
Ambassador of Vocal Inspiration
That's probably like the first time I've measured. I really got kinda curious talking about this. I believe my Fenders were set right where I like them bought new. Also, I don't know if I get lucky or what but I've never bought a used Les Paul that wasn't right where I like my action at. Seems, people like to be right around where we are at, be it low or "normal".
I do dislike anything lower though. That's when you start feeling like you're playing a piano.
Sometimes I’ll measure certain aspects of my setup, just out of curiosity. Interestingly, I am pretty close to the factory specs on those things I’ve measured. But, that is a consideration that is largely irrelevant to me. Where I think the factory specs do matter would be if I can’t set to those specs without encountering some anomaly, such as severe buzzing. Then, it could be an indication that something is wrong.
When it comes to my personal tastes, however, the specs are interesting, but not at all obligatory. If I wanna use different settings, that’s my business and I don’t owe anyone an explanation!
I want the factory to set to their specs…and the guitar had better perform well at those specs! After I buy it, though, I’ll do what I want.
The way I look at it, these are just guitars! It’s really no big whoop. I think people can sometimes take it way too seriously.
When it comes to my personal tastes, however, the specs are interesting, but not at all obligatory. If I wanna use different settings, that’s my business and I don’t owe anyone an explanation!
I want the factory to set to their specs…and the guitar had better perform well at those specs! After I buy it, though, I’ll do what I want.
The way I look at it, these are just guitars! It’s really no big whoop. I think people can sometimes take it way too seriously.
I'm not surprised.
There are teams of engineers and musicians, who play these instruments in a lab environment, and arrive at what settings are considered the best overall for these instruments, based on feedback from the players.
I can set up a guitar by eyeball and it will be .025" @ the 1st, .070" at the 12th, .010" relief at the 7th, and pickups 8/64" from the strings.
These settings work and they've been tested and proven before being adopted.
Of course, you should feel free to set them wherever you like, but there is a real science behind these specifications.
For example, setting single coils 4/32" from top of pole piece to the strings, yields almost perfect pickup balance and reduces the tendency for single coils to create wolftones.
Precise setup is where it's at...
Interesting “behind the curtain” comment!
So, just curious, are all the measurements from the test musicians the ones that are actually used, or do the derived measurements end up being an average of those musicians’ settings?
Oh, and, yes, I feel quite free to do what I want with my guitar! After all, I’ve discovered that it is possible to turn a screwdriver in either direction! If I turn it one way and don’t like the result, the physics of the screwdriver are such that I can turn it back in the other direction! That discovery alone took a lot of the anxiety out of making my own adjustments.
All sarcasm aside, I do think the factory settings do work well for most situations.
gball
Ambassador of Boogie
They're a good starting point. But everyone plays differently, has a different grip, picks differently, bends strings differently, chooses their own strings, wants different results from their instrument, pays different music, feels things differently. The list goes on, but the main idea is this: these things wouldn't be user-adjustable if they were not designed to be changed for user preferences. We all have learned through the years of playing what works for us as individuals and what doesn't.
Thankfully, I'm not troubled by all that personal preference stuff. Once mine are set, that's it. Factory settings feel "right" to me.
I set every guitar up to those specs, unless something specific is requested.
It's my understanding that the players and engineers come up with the specs and those are the ones that get adopted.
I totally agree. For me, I learned to play guitar with things set pretty much to factory specs, so it’s what I’ve always known. I definitely reserve the right to do anything I want, though! I don’t get bogged down in it.
There’s no “right” way. Just a “preferred” way. From Robert’s description, it seems the engineers use the settings developed from musicians actually playing the instruments to come up with a spec. I’m glad to see they use that approach: actually using real musicians playing. That does give me some basis to accept that the spec is derived from some player-centric metric. But, ultimately what this illustrates is that the specs, themselves, are a reflection of the collective preferences of those musicians.
I do take an interest in some other setups, though. For example, Eric Johnson sets his fretboard perfectly flat, with no relief.
But, what does it really matter, anyhow? Nobody has to play my guitars and I’m not lining up to play anyone else’s, so I’m kind of just wasting time and space on the internet even going on about it!
Jethro Rocker
Ambassador of Live & Loud Action
I find in a larger venue with higher volumes I need less low end. Physics. I don't spend all day dicking with it but if I used the same amp in 2 venues at 2 different volume levels I would change the EQ some in that way. Also how my ears hear things that day will affect it. If it sounds off somehow to me I will change what I think I need to to make it sound how I want for me. Even whereI stand can affect it.
As long as it sounds how I want it to.
gball
Ambassador of Boogie
I have damn near zero relief in my necks; they simply feel better to me that way. I also set my pickups significantly lower than factory spec; they simply sound better to me that way. Like you said, no right or wrong and there's a reason things are adjustable. There has to be a baseline in manufacturing, a goldilocks adjustment that can be used as a reference point to crank the product out the door, but from there its all what works for the user.
For sure, once the power tubes start taking a bigger role at higher volumes the whole nature of the sound changes for me so I have to tweak the EQ. Same deal, I need to hear what I want coming out of the amp and monitors. Don't care too much what they do FOH after that.
Jethro Rocker
Ambassador of Live & Loud Action
Yep Fletcher Munson comes into affect at lower levels. And we play some places that are considered a pub - quite small amd eelatively quiet.
flatrockmobile
Well-Known Member
Been eyballin some Edwards LP's lately. Want one that's already stateside. I really don't know if one would be an improvement over the GrassRoots LP I already have. The GR is kind of the Epi's of Edwards and is a damn fine instrument on its own. The Edwards have a Duncan JB & Jazz set but I put an excellent set of Duncan Designed Duncan Distortion knock offs (HB103) in my GR and the guitar and pickups give me all I need in a LP for pretty cheap.
Oh well, I like eyeballin. Maybe one day I'll commit.
Oh well, I like eyeballin. Maybe one day I'll commit.
One thing I love about my 1993 Marshall Valvestate Bi-Chorus. It sounds the same at all volume levels.
When I was running a tube amp, there were too many variables.
I agree that the venue will dictate volume levels.
But, you go look at Def Leppard's live rig for example....and I have...the EQ's are never altered. There's paint marks on everything.
If you listen hard enough, you'll hear something...
The actual published Fender/Gibson spec is .008" to .012" and I generally shoot for the middle at .010", which isn't much relief at all.
The guitars play very well at that spec, so I see no reason to alter it, although some do, and that's fine.production., scientific reason for relief is to ensure there is no fret buzz, especially when the strings are struck very hard and they begin to oscillate.
I am amazed at how much musicians complicate things, but I guess when it's not your living, you can dick around all you want.
Every time someone tweaks an EQ in a club I have to laugh because it's an indiscernible difference, but they've conditioned themselves to believe it. We've sat and listened to the playback and the waveform and I literally laugh outoud when the guitarist is faced with the reality that his tone did not change..and some guys get pissed when their theory is dispelled.
But, the industry is constantly telling people myths like these tone caps have a warmer tone, or this wood will give you this or that and this musical mythogy is big business.
Spending the past 7 years working daily in the professional recording industry dispelled many myths I had learned about sound production.
I was working at Capitol one day as part of a team and this guitarist kept moving his mic and dicking with his EQ's and the producer punched in and said "Get this guy the f***k outta here and get me someone who can play the guitar and not just twist knobs. We are burning $300 an hour here, Sport. Strike 3, you're out..."
My job as a music instructor is teaching live performance techniques. One of the things we teach the students is not to fool with changing settings and focus on the performance.
Efficiency and economy of movement are vital to earning a living in this industry. When a Grammy nominated producer tells me something, I don't try to outsmart him/her or present my personal theories, I just do what I'm asked and I remember the experience...but that attitude is what's kept me steadily emoyed and in demand.
I've learned a lot from these guys. Simplicity and repeatability is king.