More On Tone Wood...
- Thread starter Sp8ctre
- Start date
Can you play 'stoner' rock on it???
Well, that's one way to make a Stratocaster feel more like a Les Paul....
Amp Mad Scientist
Ambassador of Heresy
Sounds pretty solid. Heavy sounds.
Amp Mad Scientist
Ambassador of Heresy
19 . 2 pounds? gonna need 2 straps.
I need to say that the wood is everything that makes the sound of an electric guitar.
There is undoubtedly "tone wood."
There is nothing in this concrete guitar which shows otherwise.
If this concrete guitar is supposed to show that the wood doesn't matter, the experiment is a failure. It proves nothing.
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Yes, I know I'm resurrecting an old thread, but in the interest of avoiding a bunch of threads that basically talk about the same thing, I will bring this zombie back to life.
Any the hoo...
Guess what I just found?
I just found a very interesting test done by the Department of Mechanics and Vibroacoustics, AGH University of Science and Technology Cracow, Poland and they used a testing procedure which included building test guitar setups - not normal guitars, but simplified versions using sapele, rosewood, plywood, and pine. They also used a mechanized plucking apparatus to ensure consistency of plucking the guitar setup. They recorded samples and analyzed the waveforms. Then they played those to test subjects to see if they heard a difference.
One point of the study was to determine if traditional tonewoods, which are becoming scarce, could be replaced by different woods to improve sustainability. Does the wood really matter to the sound?
The bottom line?
The varying test guitar setups did produce waveforms that differed from one another and those differences could be heard by the majority of test subjects, though some samples were harder to distinguish than others.
See link below for the study.
https://journals.pan.pl/Content/121810/PDF/aoa.2021.138150.pdf?handler=pdf
As for the mechanism of how this could happen? The study doesn't address this, but different materials will absorb energy from the strings or reflect vibrations back to the strings differently from one another. In the end, it all comes down to how those materials could influence the string's vibration within the pickup's magnetic field because that is all the pickups really pick up.
Now, I do notice that the materials used in the test were quite different - this was done on purpose to maximize the possibility of detecting a difference. That makes sense and I understand the rationale. However, the more similar one guitar is to another in terms of materials, the less difference there would be on sound. As stated above, the test did note that some materials were harder to distinguish than others. This point was taken to suggest that some traditional woods could be replaced by others that are more sustainable.
One interesting thing is that the tests were performed with both single coil and humbucking pickups. Listeners were better able to discern differences when listening to samples recorded with humbuckers.
Additionally, both musicians and non-musicians comprised the listeners. Overall, the musicians scored higher than non-musicians in discerning a difference; though, the non-musicians still did rather well.
It should be noted that construction methodologies are an additional variable which add a whole new level of complexity beyond just the wood. Plus, there is the question of how audible this would be in the context of a mix. In the test, the subjects used headphones comparing recordings. They weren't listening to these samples in a mix with a bunch of instruments.
Anyway, interesting stuff.
Any the hoo...
Guess what I just found?
I just found a very interesting test done by the Department of Mechanics and Vibroacoustics, AGH University of Science and Technology Cracow, Poland and they used a testing procedure which included building test guitar setups - not normal guitars, but simplified versions using sapele, rosewood, plywood, and pine. They also used a mechanized plucking apparatus to ensure consistency of plucking the guitar setup. They recorded samples and analyzed the waveforms. Then they played those to test subjects to see if they heard a difference.
One point of the study was to determine if traditional tonewoods, which are becoming scarce, could be replaced by different woods to improve sustainability. Does the wood really matter to the sound?
The bottom line?
The varying test guitar setups did produce waveforms that differed from one another and those differences could be heard by the majority of test subjects, though some samples were harder to distinguish than others.
See link below for the study.
https://journals.pan.pl/Content/121810/PDF/aoa.2021.138150.pdf?handler=pdf
As for the mechanism of how this could happen? The study doesn't address this, but different materials will absorb energy from the strings or reflect vibrations back to the strings differently from one another. In the end, it all comes down to how those materials could influence the string's vibration within the pickup's magnetic field because that is all the pickups really pick up.
Now, I do notice that the materials used in the test were quite different - this was done on purpose to maximize the possibility of detecting a difference. That makes sense and I understand the rationale. However, the more similar one guitar is to another in terms of materials, the less difference there would be on sound. As stated above, the test did note that some materials were harder to distinguish than others. This point was taken to suggest that some traditional woods could be replaced by others that are more sustainable.
One interesting thing is that the tests were performed with both single coil and humbucking pickups. Listeners were better able to discern differences when listening to samples recorded with humbuckers.
Additionally, both musicians and non-musicians comprised the listeners. Overall, the musicians scored higher than non-musicians in discerning a difference; though, the non-musicians still did rather well.
It should be noted that construction methodologies are an additional variable which add a whole new level of complexity beyond just the wood. Plus, there is the question of how audible this would be in the context of a mix. In the test, the subjects used headphones comparing recordings. They weren't listening to these samples in a mix with a bunch of instruments.
Anyway, interesting stuff.
Another point about my post above: since this test was intended to determine if wood made a difference to sound, the pickups were run directly into a Scarlett interface and that was supplied via USB into a computer running Reaper. No processers, like a Helix, or amplifiers and speaker cabinets were used. This is good because it cuts down on the variables and maximizes the possibility to detect any effect the wood might have.
However, in the real world, we run our guitars into amplifiers and speakers or through some type of processor. All of these things will affect the sound. The speaker can have a dramatic effect and, due to its frequency response, has a filtering effect and may alter some characteristics of the sound. Consequently, it is reasonable to suspect that differences in sound noted in the test above may not show up as well in a real-world rig.
However, in the real world, we run our guitars into amplifiers and speakers or through some type of processor. All of these things will affect the sound. The speaker can have a dramatic effect and, due to its frequency response, has a filtering effect and may alter some characteristics of the sound. Consequently, it is reasonable to suspect that differences in sound noted in the test above may not show up as well in a real-world rig.
RobinS
Well-Known Member
I like the video of Greg Koch testing which one will be his ultimate Les Paul.
They have all the "same" wood and construction but hey do sound different. Why that is? my believe is every and each guitar is different and every piece of wood "sounds" and reacts different and that is all of the magic, find a great combination and you have a great guitar.
You can say some are a bit different to the others but basically they are all Les Pauls made of mahogany and a maple top.
A great guitar is a great guitar.
Life is good,
Robin
They have all the "same" wood and construction but hey do sound different. Why that is? my believe is every and each guitar is different and every piece of wood "sounds" and reacts different and that is all of the magic, find a great combination and you have a great guitar.
You can say some are a bit different to the others but basically they are all Les Pauls made of mahogany and a maple top.
A great guitar is a great guitar.
Life is good,
Robin
BFT Gibson
Ambassador of Originality
And what a guitar sounds like on its own goes out the window in a band mix. 2 types of ways at looking at tone
What individual wants to hear in the room playing by ones self or are you in the right eq lane for the task at hand in the music you are making
What individual wants to hear in the room playing by ones self or are you in the right eq lane for the task at hand in the music you are making
BFT Gibson
Ambassador of Originality
Whats awesome is 50 of us can grab the same guitar & rig & we will all sound different. Thankfully !! & we are not machines trying be scientific recreating some ones 0100110 opinion of what music should be ..we are conveying emotional from the brain to the DAW..it all matters really..
Amp Mad Scientist
Ambassador of Heresy
I absolutely agree w you each one is somewhat different.
But the LP is interesting because maple is a dead wood with no resonance but rather acts like a damper.
And mahogany is a lively resonant wood.
The maple is very solid and rigid, ideally for mounting the bridge and tailpiece; much harder than the mahogany.
Combining the maple with the mahogany produces a guitar with resonance and damping at the same time.
Mahogany sustains very well, but maple stops ringing and microphonic feedback. A combination of resonance and damping in proportion. approximately 30% maple, and 70% mahogany.
But if you go to a 100% maple Les Paul, with no other woods, the first thing you notice is that it has no sustain whatsoever. It's a very noticeable difference.
And so what I have learned is that the type of wood is my most important factor.
And what I have learned is that the pickups and electronics are not my source of sound; but only serve the wood that the guitar is built from.
BFT Gibson
Ambassador of Originality
Interesting because am hunting for next guitar. It has to be a heavy body for where i want the tone to track under my mid-ish SGJ. Am doing decent into the 5150 with it but looking back
Dean ML with dirty fingers(excellent to push marshalls)
Gibson LP 498(by far the best for high gain clarity & punch--super articulate & so precise)
Epi Explorer-stock Alnico classic all around monster in high gain situations) it was the heaviest guitar i ever picked up & it def handled low tuning clear & full without gain crazy. Incredible in the mix
Those 3 were my rythym for 100+ songs with SGJ & Dean V with SD Screamon demons for leads in standard tuning
Sure was about body mass combined with right pickup to place it in the musical layer cake
Since recording a ton again in the heavies looking at one of those to expand the sonic palate...
Dean ML with dirty fingers(excellent to push marshalls)
Gibson LP 498(by far the best for high gain clarity & punch--super articulate & so precise)
Epi Explorer-stock Alnico classic all around monster in high gain situations) it was the heaviest guitar i ever picked up & it def handled low tuning clear & full without gain crazy. Incredible in the mix
Those 3 were my rythym for 100+ songs with SGJ & Dean V with SD Screamon demons for leads in standard tuning
Sure was about body mass combined with right pickup to place it in the musical layer cake
Since recording a ton again in the heavies looking at one of those to expand the sonic palate...
Amp Mad Scientist
Ambassador of Heresy
The test should be done, comparing different types of wood in solid body guitars.
But it's going to be a very expensive test. It's going to cost 1000s of dollars to do a proper comparison.
Which explains why nobody has really done a proper documented comparison test.
Maple L6-S VS Mahogany L6-S
Maple Les Paul VS Mahogany LP
Maple SG VS Mahogany SG
Strat Bodies: Alder, Maple, Mahogany, Walnut, Swamp Ash, Koa, etc...
Tele Bodies: Alder, Maple, Mahogany, Walnut, Swamp Ash, Koa, etc...
All types of pickups and guitar parts...
3 independent guitar techs from 3 independent music stores supervise the tests.
Independent professional musicians play the instruments.
Documentation of each test....
It's to gather all these things into one place, to do an actual fair comparison that will require exceptional efforts and resources.
But it's going to be a very expensive test. It's going to cost 1000s of dollars to do a proper comparison.
Which explains why nobody has really done a proper documented comparison test.
Maple L6-S VS Mahogany L6-S
Maple Les Paul VS Mahogany LP
Maple SG VS Mahogany SG
Strat Bodies: Alder, Maple, Mahogany, Walnut, Swamp Ash, Koa, etc...
Tele Bodies: Alder, Maple, Mahogany, Walnut, Swamp Ash, Koa, etc...
All types of pickups and guitar parts...
3 independent guitar techs from 3 independent music stores supervise the tests.
Independent professional musicians play the instruments.
Documentation of each test....
It's to gather all these things into one place, to do an actual fair comparison that will require exceptional efforts and resources.
rolandson
Well-Known Member
Well...a couple of sensitive transducers, a signal generator, and a well calibrated oscilloscope is all one would need...
plus of course access to an acoustically isolated environment in which to conduct the test.
It's all really just a reliable means of quantitatively evaluating the resonant qualities of the woods in a repeatable manner...
Amp Mad Scientist
Ambassador of Heresy
There is already a system in place to measure each type of wood, and it has been thoroughly documented.
Tone Wood has been thoroughly studied...
What has not been done is to apply tests to each type of wood used in each type of solid body guitar.
HOW does the wood used affect the sound of a solid body guitar?
We are being brainwashed into believing:
"wood doesn't matter," in the sound of an electric guitar.
I completely disagree with this convention.
We are also being fed:
"the sound comes only from the electronics," which I also completely disagree with.
The purpose of these proposed tests is to prove that this information is misleading; and in fact, that the wood used is the most important factor.
An electric guitar does NOT sustain because: the wood it's made out of.
And no matter what parts are installed on the dead guitar, it will never sustain.
Not only will I say it, I will prove it.
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Amp Mad Scientist
Ambassador of Heresy
Concrete guitar...
"cardboard guitar..."
Glass guitar?
Sound comes out of it, but HOW does it sound?
The fact that a concrete guitar produces sound ...is pretty meaningless.
Jethro Rocker
Ambassador of Live & Loud Action
I have my Goya L6 copy plus the Gibby L6-S. The way I would describe them is bright. Not dull, bright.
They sustain very well. Not as thick sounding or loud as an LP, acoustically. Hot Bill Lawrence pups make the L6 on par with the Ibanez Prestige with the SD Distortion pickup.
Does a maple topped LP sustain less than an SG, solid mahogany?
When using amplified guitars, I think the above is totally wrong.
Seamus OReally
Well-Known Member
“Brainwashed?” “Being fed?” Well, let’s not get melodramatic. There are people who hold these opinions and no one is trying to force you to share them.
What I find somewhat interesting. I bought my first electric guitar in 2007. In the ensuing 17 years…. Is it the electronics…. Is it the wood…. The amp…. Fingers…. That makes the difference. Discussed ad nauseam. And the discussion in 2024 is exactly the same as it was 2007. Nothing has changed.
BFT Gibson
Ambassador of Originality
have my personal preferences obviously in gear..but from jamming with many people over the years..its the PLAYER... you get with players...who practice & are prepared & ready.. you dont talk about your gear..you make music with what you got & it does the talking.