How NOT to dial in a good sound!

smitty_p

smitty_p

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More words of wisdom from Colin.

Some of what he says may seem counterintuitive, but he is spot on.

He is mostly speaking about metal, but this applies to other forms of music.

It also provides insight as to why a great sound you achieve at home disappears in a live setting. Before I learned this principle, I made the same mistakes.

Enjoy!

 
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Words of wisdom.

I am never higher than 1:00 on the gain, usually more like noonish.
With the band I run bass at basically zero to just above zero and creep just a bit back in with the GEQ. Playing alone I’ll push the bass up to maybe 9:00.
 
gball said:
Words of wisdom.

I am never higher than 1:00 on the gain, usually more like noonish.
With the band I run bass at basically zero to just above zero and creep just a bit back in with the GEQ. Playing alone I’ll push the bass up to maybe 9:00.
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We been busy dialing in our live tone. The bassist insists we record tracks as a full band, so evetything has to be right on.

My current tone makes Mustaine sound like SRV....but its evolutionary, really...It fits our work...
 
what language is he speaking........................... (KIDDING) poor fella looks constipated .......


he is correct theough
 
smitty_p said:
More words of wisdom from Colin.

Some of what he says may seem counterintuitive, but he is spot on.

He is mostly speaking about metal, but this applies to other forms of music.

It also provides insight as to why a great sound you achieve at home disappears in a live setting. Before I learned this principle, I made the same mistakes.

Enjoy!

Click to expand...


I have never owned a distortion pedal, so I can't comment on that, but it seems this guy's never heard the glory of a super lead plexi running flat out.... :-)

Once you get the volume high enough, things start happening that just don't seem to take place at lower volumes. I run a TON of bass and resonance, but also I counter with hellacious high end, so it kind of balances out I suppose...It cuts through that's for sure...
 
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Robert Herndon said:
... but it seems this guy's never heard the glory of a super lead plexi running flat out.... :)
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I don’t know. However, whether it’s building guitars, recording, or performing, Colin isn’t new to this stuff. I wouldn’t doubt that he’s had opportunity to hear all variety of amps! He’s not just a bedroom Youtuber.

Robert Herndon said:
I run a TON of bass and resonance, but also I counter with hellacious high end, so it kind of balances out I suppose...It cuts through that's for sure...
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I certainly can’t comment since I’ve not heard what you’re doing there. Actually, my opinion doesn’t matter a whole lot; what matters is how you and the rest of the band like your sound.

But, I think the idea is more than just “cutting through”. I could crank the bridge pickup on a Strat and take out all bottom end and I’d cut through too...it would be like a sonic ice-pick in your ear...but I’d cut through!

If you look at the settings he used in the video, he didn’t take out bass or highs. He just dialed them back a bit and pushed his mids a little more than you’d expect in a metal context. His sound was clear in the mix, but wasn’t harsh or cutting.

Interestingly, I didn’t care as much for the guitar sound on it’s own. It wasn’t bad, per se, but seemed mid heavy...almost honky. But, in the mix with bass and drums it seemed to lay just right in the mix. It sounded nice and heavy and punchy.
 
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smitty_p said:
I don’t know. However, whether it’s building guitars, recording, or performing, Colin isn’t new to this stuff. I wouldn’t doubt that he’s had opportunity to hear all variety of amps! He’s not just a bedroom Youtuber.



I certainly can’t comment since I’ve not heard what you’re doing there. Actually, my opinion doesn’t matter a whole lot; what matters is how you and the rest of the band like your sound.

But, I think the idea is more than just “cutting through”. I could crank the bridge pickup on a Strat and take out all bottom end and I’d cut through too...it would be like a sonic ice-pick in your ear...but I’d cut through!

If you look at the settings he used in the video, he didn’t take out bass or highs. He just dialed them back a bit and pushed his mids a little more than you’d expect in a metal context. His sound was clear in the mix, but wasn’t harsh or cutting.

Interestingly, I didn’t care as much for the guitar sound on it’s own. It wasn’t bad, per se, but seemed mid heavy...almost honky. But, in the mix with bass and drums it seemed to lay just right in the mix. It sounded nice and heavy and punchy.
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Sound and tone are constantly evolutionary. I think Colin (?) makes sense in his demonstration, but it seems to focus on the 'Djent' style the most to me.

I'm hardly an expert at anything other than experimentation....but I personally find the greatest challenge is getting a full lead tone. I never seem to have trouble getting a fat, punchy rhythm tone to blend in well in the mix.

Having said that - and to help quantify my previous statement about volume - there are some tones I have been unable to produce without high volume and miking speakers.

I've been very quiet and sponge-like, and paying a lot of attention to what our engineer is doing and how he is approaching the overall mix in general.

Scooped mids kinda is a part of this genre to at least some degree. If I was to make one singular observation with regard to Colin's video - specifically his scooped mid demonstration - I would say this:

His theory clearly works, in that his "Djent" tone gets lost in the overall mix. With him - and on this point - I am in total agreement.

However, I find so much sonic limitation with a 3 band EQ, as most amplifiers have, which is why I think we see guys like Iommi with 4 or 6 multi-band EQ's in their rack mounts.

I guess you could say my feelings are Colin is indeed accurate in a one-dimensional sense, but with multiple EQ bands - and much greater volume - things change so dramatically.

For example...the biggest part of SRV's and Gary Moore's tones where the volumes that they played at.

He does seem like a sharp fellow, that's for sure....
 
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I think I have learned more about live mix in the past 16 hours (working on this current project) than in the past 16 years. It seems there really are no rules...structure, perhaps, but no absolutes...no universal technique.

I take 3 amps with me and two guitars - a Marshall DSL40C with Weber attenuator, a 1997 Marshall Valvestate VS265 and a Blackstar ID-CORE 2x10 100 watt - along with my Gibson SG and Les Paul.

Turns out, the engineer just did not like the Les Paul's tone. He described it as "too bright." The SG - my least favorite guitar - was the one he liked the sound of the best. Same goes for the buzzy/hummy 1997 Marshall Valvestate VS265 2X12.

However, in just letting go to the flow of things, I heard a tonal quality emerge from my stuff that I have been unable to find previously.

Taking lots of notes....lots.
 
Robert Herndon said:
However, I find so much sonic limitation with a 3 band EQ, as most amplifiers have, which is why I think we see guys like Iommi with 4 or 6 multi-band EQ's in their rack mounts.

I guess you could say my feelings are Colin is indeed accurate in a one-dimensional sense, but with multiple EQ bands - and much greater volume - things change so dramatically.
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Ahem...
mark-5-25-head-center-1.jpg


But, in reference to volume, I think ol' Colin is spot-on. In a mix, at gigging volume, it's even more important to cut through and occupy your own sonic space.

I've met a lot of people who tell me they don't like Mesa's because they are too mid-heavy. They prefer the traditional Fender/Marshall scooped mid sound because, well, when you're just banging away by your self those tones are just more fun. But they can get lost in a mix pretty quickly, and even moreso if there are two guitars in the band. One of the things I like about Boogies is the mid presence they have at high volume. Really tough to get lost.

The other thing I see at shows I go to all the time is guys running too much bass. They use up all their headroom trying to compete with the bass guitar and end up with sonic mud. Why?? The bass is going to overpower you anyway so why add so much compression to your sound and give up punch trying to bang out a bunch of low end? Sure, it sounds bitchin' and brootal when you're just palm muting by yourself, but when these guys and the bass players are walking all over each other in a mix it sounds a mess.

And gain? Turn it DOWN motherf#$ckers!! FFS, this is the curse of modern guitar players - gain got too cheap and easy to add to your sound. The toughest thing I run into when I play with other people is they, A.) have become so reliant on using stacks of gain that they don't even have a defineable tone anynmore, and B.) they make the mistake of equating gain with "heavy" and it's really the opposite; You want to move a lot of air and sound heavy? Back off the damn gain and let the amp's headroom breathe a bit. The gnarliest tones I have ever heard have the gain turned down farther than you think and let the power section and speakers do the heavy lifting.
 
To echo gball a bit, let the guy at the board cut the mids as(if) needed. The guitar is a mid-centric instrument in context with a full band...scooping all the mids out at the amp diminishes the ability of the guitar being present in the mix(it’s easier to take away something in the audio spectrum at the console, than it is to add something that’s just not there).
Power tube distortion is cool(IMO), and too much preamp gain is gonna color it...at the least.
Turning up the bass is going to be different from amp to amp...turning up the bass on my 18watter is a lot less detrimental than cranking it on my Laney AOR50, or Dual Rec.
Gain, on most of my amps and pedals, never goes past 1:00-2:00.
 
Good discussion and good points....

I'm starting to realize almost everyone I meet uses a distortion pedal and I seem like the oddball because I have never used them. I feel as though my amps all produce plenty of gain on their own, even with a 5751 tube in V1, I still have plenty of gain and I'm generally running it all the way up.
 
Wether or not I use a dirt box depends on the amp, mostly.
If I only have a single channel, or it’s a fairly clean amp, I’ll get my dirt from a(probably homebrew) box.
My Dual Rec has 3 channels, and I don’t feel the need with it...unless I want fuzz...that’s a different story.
My Laney does both crushing dirt, and clean too...so same there.
My Tiny Terror is only one channel, with plenty of gain on tap, so I might set it up either way. If I’m playing mostly dirty, I’ll use the guitar controls to clean up sometimes. Depends on the mood.

Edit: boost or overdrive may be present in any of those scenarios.
 
Robert Herndon said:
Good discussion and good points....

I'm starting to realize almost everyone I meet uses a distortion pedal and I seem like the oddball because I have never used them. I feel as though my amps all produce plenty of gain on their own, even with a 5751 tube in V1, I still have plenty of gain and I'm generally running it all the way up.
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You're not alone. I don't use a distortion pedal, either. I do have a Tubescreamer that I will use to put a little hair on my clean channel, but i rely on the amp for distortion. I may use a clean boost, too. But, I have no actual "distortion" pedal on my board.

I haven't tried a lot of distortion pedals, but I kind of soured on them a few years back because they didn't sound as organic to me as the amp's native capabilities.

My channel select switch is my distortion pedal!
 
Breaking until 2pm....

I had a very humbling experience this morning when our engineer offered some criticism. The delivery was a bit harsh but I had to agree with him whether I liked it or not.....
 
gball said:
And gain? Turn it DOWN motherf#$ckers!! FFS, this is the curse of modern guitar players - ...
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Lotsa truth there.

I've found that even on a little amp, keeping the gain backed off to around noon or 1:00 is best. It doesn't get fizzy at that point. But, if I turn the master volume up it will provide a lot of sound for the mic to pick up. From there, the PA amps push to the house. It's the best of both worlds, in a way.

In the mix, this actually sounds HEAVIER than if I have the gain higher. Alone at home, it seems to have less gain, but in a mix on stage, it pushes that sonic space nicely.
 
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