Nope...Duncan JB's...Larrivee RS2 guitars.
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Gibson 57+ v Gibson Angus Young...
- Thread starter Mr Grumpy
- Start date
Nope...Duncan JB's...Larrivee RS2 guitars.
This is ultimate rhythm tone right here....
Duncan Distortion SH-6B - 16.6k Ohms....
Lot's of incredible technique here.
Watch his bluesy slow jamming at about 9:10
Duncan Distortion SH-6B - 16.6k Ohms....
Lot's of incredible technique here.
Watch his bluesy slow jamming at about 9:10
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OP
Mr Grumpy
Ambassador of Comings and Goings
I'm only kidding with the 57 stuff, Frank'd - they are very nice pickups, I just wanted a bit more output and slightly different focus in the bridge position. I really like the 57 in the neck position, it growls nicely, has clarity and relatively decent note definition too (not like a Bare Knuckle though).
OP
Mr Grumpy
Ambassador of Comings and Goings
Meh... More hair rock.
I much prefer something closer to blues rock, and a bit less output:
This has nice tone, classic rock:
OP
Mr Grumpy
Ambassador of Comings and Goings
Only because you haven't tried the AY yet!
I also like the BB pickups on clips I've heard, but never owned a set. On clips, I don't like the 57s, but in person they are really nice - especially in the neck position. There's a 2014 studio pro that I have my eye on if the price comes down and I sell one of the SGs, and it has a 57 in the neck and a BB in the bridge (about $1350 NOS).
[국제기타몰] Gibson Les Paul Studio Pro (Black Cherry Pearl/RW)
ivan H
Ambassador of Tubes & Grooves
I have the Duncan Distortions in my Jackson Soloist. Neck is 12.7k with the resonant peak at 6.5Khz (bridge is 5.5Khz). Great pickups for aggressive type rhythm or lead. Really tight with strong upper mids. Good through a lower gain, non master type amp & even better through a higher gain amp. Sound fantastic through my amp with the Tim Caswell #39 mod. (Lynch liked the original #39). I agree with Frank that the 57+ is plenty hot enough. In the bridge of my SG it had no trouble pushing my 4 hole 50 watter well & truly into overdrive. No need to dime the amp volume to do it either. I also agree with Johnny Goo in that you need to listen to a pickup up near gigging volume to really hear its true characteristics. That doesn't mean the amps volume on 10 either. Cheers
Ok, then break this down to DC resistance values. Let us put aside all the opinions and concentrate only on facts. We know from my friend Fil Olivieri's exhaustive investigation and inspection of Angus Young's early guitars, that AY used stock Gibson pickups with 7.5K, Bridge 7.8K, short A2 magnets. That can be found in exhaustive detail on SoloDallas.com | Back in Black and exact replicas of Angus' original pickups, designed from an actual inspection of his SG can be purchased here: ThroBak '70/SELECT, T-Top replica guitar pickups.
The modern Gibson AY pickup is a modern incarnation and shares NOTHING with his original pickups other than appearance - According to www.gibson.com, the AY is 9.2k with Alinco V magnets, but many report actual readings well over 10k with this model.
According to www.gibson.com, a 57 Classic Open Bobbin 2 conductor has 7.5k with Alinco II magnets and a 57 Classic + Open Bobbin 2 conductor has 8.3k Ohms with Alinco II magnets.
Again, according to www.gibson.com, a 57 Classic Nickel Covered 4 conductor has 8.3k with Alinco II magnets, but some have posted photos of genuine Gibson 57 Classic + pickups reading much higher resistance values than this. Keep in mind that Gibson doesn't rate their pickups the same as Duncan, Carvin, DiMarzio and others, so you cannot always rely on what's on the Gibson website. Many report much higher (and sometimes much lower) actual values on these pickups.
Again, according to www.gibson.com:
Burstbucker Type 1 - 6.5k - Alinco 2
Burstbucker Type 2 - 7.4k - Alinco 2
Burstbucker Type 3 - 8.4k - Alinco 2
Burstbucker Pro Bridge - 8.4k - Alinco V
I had three new sets of Gibson pickups - two sets of 490R/490T - a 2015 set and a set of "Revised Specification" 2016;s for the 2017 model year and a pair of 47 classics with nickel covers. The actual values were all over the place on all of these pickups, so I would suggest taking actual readings at specific temperatures for your own comparison.
In contrast, my favorite PAF clone. when someone wants vintage PAF tone, is the GFS Classic II with short Alinco II magnets - 8.2k bridge and 8.0k neck - actual measurements taken by me were 7.93k & 7.88k @ 56°F. I use this pickup all the time and keep several sets on hand.
So. getting back to the original post, "Gibson 57 Classic + Vs. Angus Young" debate, on paper, and again according to www.gibson.com, there is less than 1.0k ohms difference between them - the biggest difference is one uses A2 and the other A5 - they are essentially the same pickup otherwise....
Only because you haven't tried the AY yet!
I also like the BB pickups on clips I've heard, but never owned a set. On clips, I don't like the 57s, but in person they are really nice - especially in the neck position. There's a 2014 studio pro that I have my eye on if the price comes down and I sell one of the SGs, and it has a 57 in the neck and a BB in the bridge (about $1350 NOS).
[국제기타몰] Gibson Les Paul Studio Pro (Black Cherry Pearl/RW)
"it has a 57 in the neck and a BB in the bridge (about $1350 NOS)."
Burstbucker Pro Bridge - 8.4k - Alinco V
57 Classic Nickel Covered Neck 4 conductor has 8.3k with Alinco II magnets
OP
Mr Grumpy
Ambassador of Comings and Goings
Sorry, my friend, but this is only part of the story.
I've watched a few videos from superb pickup makers/winders such as Trevor Wilkinson and Jason Lollar, and they are consistent in saying that DC output is nothing more than indicative to general output, many other areas have much greater affect on the pickup whether that be base plate design, general pickup design, magnet length and strength, other features that make up capacitance characteristics and other tone dominating characteristics.
Playing the 57+ (this read 8.2k at the jack, very similar to a 490T which is a quite low output paf at 8kish) back to back with the AY in the same guitar, minutes apart tells me: the AY has significantly more output - it is the range of 10k-11k, and this has been confirmed on many sites/threads by folks who have taken the pickup to pieces and checked them out. Output does not dominate the tonal characteristics (it is but one factor), and the AY pickup was designed to sound like a early 60s paf being overdriven, and that is what it sounds like. A 57+ is designed to different specs for different purposes, but I wouldn't be surprised if the 57 classic was Gibson's starting point for making the AY - they then deviated quite far; I don't know what they did, but they did plenty (not just a magnet swap), and the two pickups are designed to provide different sounds (which they both do very well, imho, I just happen to prefer the AY sound).
Also, Gibsons chart shows the AY having more output than the 498T - having used both, I can assure you that the 498T has a lot more oomph (I measured mine at the jack at 12.5, but other folks have measured them at over 13k). Again, this is just indicative, but Gibsons figures, as given on their website are extremely general.
I was laughing a bit today as I saw an ad on ebay for a 57/57+ - both were measured at 8k, and both had a 57 sticker on them, taken out of the 2017 SG standard; as has been discussed on the other site, Gibson seem to be putting the 57 Classic in the bridge position this year, not a 57+, but that's just btw - Gibson's figures and marketing always need to be taken with a large pinch of salt, imho.
As previously stated, almost everyone offers a different view of how pickups are measured. The problem with Gibson is their pickups are all over the place. No two are alike, so you can only, accurately, evaluate them on a case by case basis. I only posted what facts we can obtain from Gibson's website, but Gibson "facts" are indeed subject to interpretation.
A lot of people will tell you they like this pickup, or that pickup, with nothing more than a one-time personal opinion as substantiating their statement.
Now, I am not a pickup winder, (although I have done it as an experiment) but I believe I can tell you, with absolute certainty, that I have purchased more pickups than anyone else on this forum in search of the ultimate tone in my own guitars.
I will readily and publically retract this statement if anyone offers evidence to the contrary.
In my tonal quest, I have purchased and/or borrowed/used/installed for clients/or experimented personally with guitar pickups from the following manufacturers, since about 1983 or so:
DiMarzio, Ibanez, Carvin, Fralin, Lollar, Duncan, Benson, Bare Knuckles, Tone Empourium, Rio Grande, David Allen, Schuyler Dean, Original Gibson T-tops, Suhr, Dominger, Sentell, Mojotone, Bill Lawrence, MJS Custom, Xotic Effects California, RAW Vintage, EMG, O.C. Duff, Geppetto, Amalfitano, Stephen's Design, S.K. Guitar Specialties, Telenator, and Fender.
Now, my Mom (Wild Rose Records & Publishing) had an endorsement from Carvin for PA equipment back in the 1980's, so I was able to get pickups from them just by requesting them, so I really like the Carvin product because of their consistency and I have used a lot of their products.
Having said that, when I do offer an opinion on tone, while we can all agree that tone is subjective, I can assure you that I offer my 2 cents worth based on hands-on experience with a vast array of custom pickups, not just the one "Brand X" I installed and never used anything else.
Not that any of this makes me a pickup expert, but I believe it does give me a much broader view of what type of product these winders are producing and what works and what doesn't.
I can also tell you that the best quality, appearance and tone come from the most obscure names on the list, and the most disappointing appearance and tone come from some of the biggest names on the list.
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Gibson is the like the beautiful girl that drinks whiskey and smokes cigars and keeps telling you she is a virgin....
I have, at long last, come to the conclusion that my "signature tone" is not going to happen at anything less than about 16k/17k.
It starts happening around Suhr Doug Aldrich Signature Levels - 17.5k Ohms - all the way up to the Matthias Jabs Dommenget MuscleBucker levels of a full 20k Ohms.
For the Von Herndon lineup, I considered GFS, and I do intend to offer them in my import line, but I came up with my own design specifications for humbuckers under the "Von Herndon Supre-Sonic" trade name.
Basically, in physical appearance, they are a copy of the Ibanez V2 with (12) individual and adjustable allen-head pole pieces - offered in bridge/middle/neck configurations and spacing's - 16.9k/10.5k/8.8k.
I have a "SonicScorpion" in the design phase now, that pays homage to the Matthias Jabs/Dommenget MuscleBucker that specs out at a full 22k....
It starts happening around Suhr Doug Aldrich Signature Levels - 17.5k Ohms - all the way up to the Matthias Jabs Dommenget MuscleBucker levels of a full 20k Ohms.
For the Von Herndon lineup, I considered GFS, and I do intend to offer them in my import line, but I came up with my own design specifications for humbuckers under the "Von Herndon Supre-Sonic" trade name.
Basically, in physical appearance, they are a copy of the Ibanez V2 with (12) individual and adjustable allen-head pole pieces - offered in bridge/middle/neck configurations and spacing's - 16.9k/10.5k/8.8k.
I have a "SonicScorpion" in the design phase now, that pays homage to the Matthias Jabs/Dommenget MuscleBucker that specs out at a full 22k....
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Gahr
Ambassador of Blues & Brews
Funnily enough, all the three 57 Classic pickups I have measure exactly the same; 7.83 k, all measured at the same time, at the same temperature, taken out of their respective guitars.
The one 57 Classic+ I have measures 8.6 at the same temp as the 57 Classics.
Swapping the magnets in them from A2 to A5 was a very interesting experience. More powerful mids and less spiky highs. Would have been interesting to compare the A5 Classic+ to an Angus Young and a 498T.
Gahr,
As previously stated, everyone has different experiences with Gibson pickups. I will spare everyone the details, but my results of testing my 3 sets of Gibson pickups was well documented herein....
Yep...James Douglas "Jimmy" Lyon, a former member of the Greg Khin band....
Slag (insert big name here)______....I have, at long last, come to the conclusion that my "signature tone" is not going to happen at anything less than about 16k/17k.
It starts happening around Suhr Doug Aldrich Signature Levels - 17.5k Ohms - all the way up to the Matthias Jabs Dommenget MuscleBucker levels of a full 20k Ohms.
View attachment 5690
For the Von Herndon lineup, I considered GFS, and I do intend to offer them in my import line, but I came up with my own design specifications for humbuckers under the "Von Herndon Supre-Sonic" trade name.
Basically, in physical appearance, they are a copy of the Ibanez V2 with (12) individual and adjustable allen-head pole pieces - offered in bridge/middle/neck configurations and spacing's - 16.9k/10.5k/8.8k.
I have a "SonicScorpion" in the design phase now, that pays homage to the Matthias Jabs/Dommenget MuscleBucker that specs out at a full 22k....
View attachment 5689
Peddle your new product...
3500 posts slagging 3 guitars(and still peppering them in here and there...the same stories), now you're selling stuff using Gibson, and Fender as reference(Gibson scale, Fender shapes). You post endlessly in the Gibson, and Fender sections about your upcoming product stuff. I'm guessing the margins on Floyd trem's looks promising by the latest posts.
Dude, I like all af my guitars...Gibson, Fender, Martin, Washburn, ESP LTD, Schecter, Gladiator, Xaviere...even my little Squier. I even USED to like Floyd Rose trem's...but I guess I got too lazy or something.
Maybe the stuff you're working on is going to be truly epic. I hope it IS.
Constantly slamming other products(that some of us enjoy in a nearly trouble free manner) and then pitching something using those names etc...in an area where someone that enjoys products,
that are made by the companies with those names, might like to go and read about them...well....it just smells funny...
I just can't get that image out of my head now...
Peace
Sorry, wasn't this thread a comparison of a couple of Gibson model pickups? I have a couple of the models mentioned here, and have been reading, with interest of your observations.
Party on...
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Gahr
Ambassador of Blues & Brews
I definitely believe you. Although all my 57 Classics measured exactly the same, the values were different from the specs stated by Gibson. As was the case for the 57 Classic+.
I still think they sound really good, though!
Nothing has been slammed here. Ohms readings have been posted. Some opinions too based on personal experience on both sides of the discussion. I think this is good.
"Gibson Scale" is a reference for those who are unfamiliar with a 24.75" scale by measurement.
There are no patent restrictions on the Strat and Tele body shapes.
Epic? Not likely, but a perfect blend if the best of two famous guitars.
I really dig the cartoon. I would like it better if you could create a cartoon likeness of me on the guitar with a Von Herndon headstock...
OP
Mr Grumpy
Ambassador of Comings and Goings
I don't see that as a problem - like means a subjective interpretation. Also, we all have different hearing frequencies, neurology and life experiences.
Your measurements are probably more accurate that mine; I simply took mine at the jack for ease, with different circuits in the tone cavity, as a general idea of output levels.
That's pretty similar to where I got by changing these pickups; more nuanced, but ballpark. The 498T is miles away in output and tonal characteristics. The 57/AY are very well balanced, much more so than the 57/57+ (even when I had the 57+ quite high); when I say 'balance', I mean: 1) volume balance when switching from bridge to neck; 2) similar overdrive characteristics on similar volume levels; 3) sound 'balance', i.e. you get characteristics of both pickups quite evenly when in the middle position.
Of all my playings around with SGs, I like this best (although the 490/AY would be equally as good, just slightly different characteristics - I like both).