Dean lost against Gibson

Andertons blog:

"If you thought Gibson was old, then you may be surprised to learn that Epiphone has even earlier origins! Established in 1873, Epiphone started out as a fiddle manufacturer in Turkey that later moved to the USA at the turn of the century, producing mandolins much like Gibson.

Fierce competitors in the archtop guitar market throughout the ’30s and ’40s, Epiphone was later acquired by Gibson in 1957. Essentially becoming Gibson’s “budget brand”, Epiphone remains the only company in the world that can produce officially-licensed Gibson design"
 
Well, I am a little fuzzy as to what constitutes a "Guitar"
Is a "guitar" just the body? or does it include the neck and head?
I've been under the impression a guitar includes everything. But maybe I'm wrong and in legalese a guitar shape only counts the body.

Also, at what point is the "shape" not infringing on a copy protected item? Would it be enough to make the body an inch wider? or the angles of the shape a degree more or less than the original? Maybe the cutaways have a little more of a curve to them ... at what point is the shape different enough? Does scale length factor in? What about how many frets? Control layout? Inlays?
When I see a Dean, I dont have to examine it closely to know it a Dean. You can tell its a Dean from afar.

I see a ton of guitars out there that look like an SG, V, Explorer, LP. I own an ESP that looks alot like a LP. Even the headstock is shaped very similar. Maybe that could be copy infringement too.
Hell, how many strat look-a-likes are out there?

Gibson needs to worry about Gibson. I have read too many quality complaints online from Gibson owners, not just haters who dont own one, but people who actually went out, shelled out the money to own a guitar with the Gibson logo on it and within a year have problems with the finish coming off or an electronics issue (that last one happened to me on my SG within a year). They should concentrate on improving the quality of their instruments to merit the much higher cost and not so much on smaller companies who care enough to do it better.

Sorry for the wide ranging rant. Just had to let that out.

It's not about the whole guitar; it's about those features which a guitar manufacturer has decided to trademark (also, it's not a copywrite; that is something different).

What can and cannot be trademark protected can get fuzzy and it is up to the the USPTO to grant trademark protection once an application is submitted. A manufacturer can't just call anything a "trademark" because they feel like it. It has to be approved. Gibson has trademarked the Les Paul shape and the Gibson headstock design (though Gibson was REALLY late in trademarking the Les Paul shape. They didn't do that until 1993). The trademark lawsuits are about those elements which are trademarked, not necessarily the whole guitar. However, as the legal wranglings proceed, the question usually does come up as to whether a customer could confuse one guitar with another. So, the distinctions do get blurred quite a bit.

(As an aside, the issue with the "lawsuit era" Ibanez copy of the Les Paul was not about the body shape. It was about the headstock shape. Gibson hadn't trademarked the body shape, yet. Also, Gibson never got around to actually suing Ibanez; though, the threat was there).

The other thing to keep in mind is that trademarks must be defended by the trademark holder. There is no authoritative body independently monitoring all manufactured items for possible cases of trademark infringement. If the trademark holder does not choose to challenge a potential infringement, nothing will happen. The Catch 22 is that if a trademark holder does not challenge a trademark infringement, and the design has become more or less universal in the mean time, the trademark holder may actually lose a challenge if they do eventually decide to sue. So, as much as I don't like to see it, either, Gibson kind of has to challenge potential infringements, or they may lose their likelihood of succeeding in the future.

That is kind of the situation with Fender (though, not exactly the same). The thing about the Stratocaster serves as a lesson, and I'm sure Gibson was paying attention! Fender HAS tried to sue others over using the Strat shape. But, they waited too long. The courts determined that the Strat shape had become so ubiquitous and universal that it no longer uniquely identified a Fender guitar. Perhaps, if Fender had trademarked the design and challenged copies much earlier, things would have been different.

Another thing is that a trademark has to be focused on aesthetics, not function. So, as far as I understand it based on my personal study of these things, aspects like control layout cannot be trademarked (or a least successfully litigated) since they are functional aspects, not merely "trade dress". (Trade Dress is a subset of trademark, and is really what the whole matter is about.)

As for how much different a shape has to be to avoid trademark infringement? Well, that's what all the lawsuits are about! From what I've seen, the shapes have to be pretty much identical to be determined as infringement in court, but that doesn't mean Gibson couldn't sue, anyway, just to see what happens.
 
It's not about the whole guitar; it's about those features which a guitar manufacturer has decided to trademark (also, it's not a copywrite; that is something different).

What can and cannot be trademark protected can get fuzzy and it is up to the the USPTO to grant trademark protection once an application is submitted. A manufacturer can't just call anything a "trademark" because they feel like it. It has to be approved. Gibson has trademarked the Les Paul shape and the Gibson headstock design (though Gibson was REALLY late in trademarking the Les Paul shape. They didn't do that until 1993). The trademark lawsuits are about those elements which are trademarked, not necessarily the whole guitar. However, as the legal wranglings proceed, the question usually does come up as to whether a customer could confuse one guitar with another. So, the distinctions do get blurred quite a bit.

(As an aside, the issue with the "lawsuit era" Ibanez copy of the Les Paul was not about the body shape. It was about the headstock shape. Gibson hadn't trademarked the body shape, yet. Also, Gibson never got around to actually suing Ibanez; though, the threat was there).

The other thing to keep in mind is that trademarks must be defended by the trademark holder. There is no authoritative body independently monitoring all manufactured items for possible cases of trademark infringement. If the trademark holder does not choose to challenge a potential infringement, nothing will happen. The Catch 22 is that if a trademark holder does not challenge a trademark infringement, and the design has become more or less universal in the mean time, the trademark holder may actually lose a challenge if they do eventually decide to sue. So, as much as I don't like to see it, either, Gibson kind of has to challenge potential infringements, or they may lose their likelihood of succeeding in the future.

That is kind of the situation with Fender. The thing about the Stratocaster serves as a lesson, and I'm sure Gibson was paying attention! Fender HAS tried to sue others over using the Strat shape. But, they waited too long. The courts determined that the Strat shape had become so ubiquitous and universal that it no longer uniquely identified a Fender guitar. Perhaps, if Fender had trademarked the design and challenged copies much earlier, things would have been different.

Another thing is that a trademark has to be focused on aesthetics, not function. So, as far as I understand it based on my personal study of these things, aspects like control layout cannot be trademarked (or a least successfully litigated) since they are functional aspects, not merely "trade dress". (Trade Dress is a subset of trademark, and is really what the whole matter is about.)

As for how much different a shape has to be to avoid trademark infringement? Well, that's what all the lawsuits are about! From what I've seen, the shapes have to be pretty much identical to be determined as infringement in court, but that doesn't mean Gibson, or others, couldn't sue, anyway, just to see what happens.
Similar thing in the Ag Industry 30ish years ago. Little LLC company in central Iowa went into the corn planter business. Built the frames themselves. Initially purchased the planter unit from John Deere. Along the way, Kinze reverse engineered the planter unit…. And made it better. Started selling lots more planters. At that point John Deere sued. Cease and desist. Judge said nope. You sold them the units. They engineered it to be better. You now can’t take away their livelihood. In that instance. Once again. David slew Goliath.

Edit: Should note. At the time I was working at a Case Tractor dealership. Across the street from the John Deere dealership. We had taken on the Kinze brand so we’d have a planter to sell. We thought it was hilarious when JD lost the law suit.
 
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Similar thing in the Ag Industry 30ish years ago. Little LLC company in central Iowa went into the corn planter business. Built the frames themselves. Initially purchased the planter unit from John Deere. Along the way, Kinze reverse engineered the planter unit…. And made it better. Started selling lots more planters. At that point John Deere sued. Cease and desist. Judge said nope. You sold them the units. They engineered it to be better. You now can’t take away their livelihood. In that instance. Once again. David slew Goliath.

It gets pretty convoluted doesn't it!

I'm not a lawyer, but if I was, I would specialize in patent, trademark, and copywrite law. This stuff just fascinates me. Whenever any of this musical instrument lawsuit stuff comes up, I may spend hours researching it, just 'cuz I'm weird, like that!
 
It's not about the whole guitar; it's about those features which a guitar manufacturer has decided to trademark (also, it's not a copywrite; that is something different).

What can and cannot be trademark protected can get fuzzy and it is up to the the USPTO to grant trademark protection once an application is submitted. A manufacturer can't just call anything a "trademark" because they feel like it. It has to be approved. Gibson has trademarked the Les Paul shape and the Gibson headstock design (though Gibson was REALLY late in trademarking the Les Paul shape. They didn't do that until 1993). The trademark lawsuits are about those elements which are trademarked, not necessarily the whole guitar. However, as the legal wranglings proceed, the question usually does come up as to whether a customer could confuse one guitar with another. So, the distinctions do get blurred quite a bit.

(As an aside, the issue with the "lawsuit era" Ibanez copy of the Les Paul was not about the body shape. It was about the headstock shape. Gibson hadn't trademarked the body shape, yet. Also, Gibson never got around to actually suing Ibanez; though, the threat was there).

The other thing to keep in mind is that trademarks must be defended by the trademark holder. There is no authoritative body independently monitoring all manufactured items for possible cases of trademark infringement. If the trademark holder does not choose to challenge a potential infringement, nothing will happen. The Catch 22 is that if a trademark holder does not challenge a trademark infringement, and the design has become more or less universal in the mean time, the trademark holder may actually lose a challenge if they do eventually decide to sue. So, as much as I don't like to see it, either, Gibson kind of has to challenge potential infringements, or they may lose their likelihood of succeeding in the future.

That is kind of the situation with Fender. The thing about the Stratocaster serves as a lesson, and I'm sure Gibson was paying attention! Fender HAS tried to sue others over using the Strat shape. But, they waited too long. The courts determined that the Strat shape had become so ubiquitous and universal that it no longer uniquely identified a Fender guitar. Perhaps, if Fender had trademarked and challenged copies much earlier, things would have been different.

Another thing is that a trademark has to be focused on aesthetics, not function. So, as far as I understand it based on my personal study of these things, aspects like control layout cannot be trademarked (or a least successfully litigated) since they are functional aspects, not merely "trade dress". (Trade Dress is a subset of trademark, and is really what the whole matter is about.)

As for how much different a shape has to be to avoid trademark infringement? Well, that's what all the lawsuits are about! From what I've seen, the shapes have to be pretty much identical to be determined as infringement in court, but that doesn't mean Gibson, or others, couldn't sue, anyway, just to see what happens.
I understand the whole concept and I get the "don't steal my idea" train of thought.
But honestly, do you think Gibson would really feel it if other companies made similar guitars, not exact copies, but similar. It didn't seem to harm Fender's Strat sales much.
If I had a choice between a Gibson LP and any other brand, and money didn't matter. I'd go with a Gibson. When I bought my 61 SG, I could have went with an Epiphone and saved myself a bunch of money and I'm sure the Epi would have been great. But I wanted that "Gibson" logo on the headstock and the case. I wanted the Gibson case candy. I wanted to be able to say, "it's a Gibson". Images of Angus Young danced in my head and I paid for that satisfaction.
The Gibson brand isn't just a name. It should be something that strikes a chord in people (see what I did there!). It's brings to mind images of legendary players who came before you who used the brand. and yes, vanity and pride are a part of that. It's why we show off our gear like family photos and there is nothing wrong with that. We all love to drool over that new guitar or amp or whatever you just bought or already have.
Gibson, in my mind's eye, has painted themselves the villain. The big bad bully. So what if Dean or any other company makes a guitar that looks almost like theirs. Gibson's attitude should be "thats a cute fiddle, but it isnt a Gibson" <--- THAT would make me want to buy their brand.
 
I understand the whole concept and I get the "don't steal my idea" train of thought.
But honestly, do you think Gibson would really feel it if other companies made similar guitars, not exact copies, but similar. It didn't seem to harm Fender's Strat sales much.
If I had a choice between a Gibson LP and any other brand, and money didn't matter. I'd go with a Gibson. When I bought my 61 SG, I could have went with an Epiphone and saved myself a bunch of money and I'm sure the Epi would have been great. But I wanted that "Gibson" logo on the headstock and the case. I wanted the Gibson case candy. I wanted to be able to say, "it's a Gibson". Images of Angus Young danced in my head and I paid for that satisfaction.
The Gibson brand isn't just a name. It should be something that strikes a chord in people (see what I did there!). It's brings to mind images of legendary players who came before you who used the brand. and yes, vanity and pride are a part of that. It's why we show off our gear like family photos and there is nothing wrong with that. We all love to drool over that new guitar or amp or whatever you just bought or already have.
Gibson, in my mind's eye, has painted themselves the villain. The big bad bully. So what if Dean or any other company makes a guitar that looks almost like theirs. Gibson's attitude should be "thats a cute fiddle, but it isnt a Gibson" <--- THAT would make me want to buy their brand.
While my G400 is not all original Epi….. along the way I had a guy that has been around every brand of guitar imaginable. Played them all. Told me my “G” is every bit as good as a genuine Gibson….. it just doesn’t say it on the headstock….. So I get it.
 
It gets pretty convoluted doesn't it!

I'm not a lawyer, but if I was, I would specialize in patent, trademark, and copywrite law. This stuff just fascinates me. Whenever any of this musical instrument lawsuit stuff comes up, I may spend hours researching it, just 'cuz I'm weird, like that!
Not weird at all. We all have our “thing.” One of mine is making pizzas. Belong to a pizza forum. So yeah…. That’d be my weird research niche. :pound-hand:
 
I understand the whole concept and I get the "don't steal my idea" train of thought.
But honestly, do you think Gibson would really feel it if other companies made similar guitars, not exact copies, but similar. It didn't seem to harm Fender's Strat sales much.
If I had a choice between a Gibson LP and any other brand, and money didn't matter. I'd go with a Gibson. When I bought my 61 SG, I could have went with an Epiphone and saved myself a bunch of money and I'm sure the Epi would have been great. But I wanted that "Gibson" logo on the headstock and the case. I wanted the Gibson case candy. I wanted to be able to say, "it's a Gibson". Images of Angus Young danced in my head and I paid for that satisfaction.
The Gibson brand isn't just a name. It should be something that strikes a chord in people (see what I did there!). It's brings to mind images of legendary players who came before you who used the brand. and yes, vanity and pride are a part of that. It's why we show off our gear like family photos and there is nothing wrong with that. We all love to drool over that new guitar or amp or whatever you just bought or already have.
Gibson, in my mind's eye, has painted themselves the villain. The big bad bully. So what if Dean or any other company makes a guitar that looks almost like theirs. Gibson's attitude should be "thats a cute fiddle, but it isnt a Gibson" <--- THAT would make me want to buy their brand.

I get your point, and I don't want to seem like I'm a Gibson apologist (though, it probably already seems like that!).

I also understand the frustration with Gibson lawsuits. This is where it all comes down to the demeanor and attitude of the executive leadership at any point in time. In the very early days, there was a real question as to whether these silly solid-body electric guitars would even last, as many in the musical instrument hierarchy just considered them to be a passing fad! I'd imagine the thought of actually having to defend against copies was the last thing anyone anticipated.

But, the thing with intellectual property is that if you don't defend it, others will usurp it.
 
I get your point, and I don't want to seem like I'm a Gibson apologist (though, it probably already seems like that!).

I also understand the frustration with Gibson lawsuits. I think the real issue is that they didn't challenge anyone for a very long time, but in the last couple of decades seem to be much more litigious than previously. This is where it all comes down to the demeanor and attitude of the executive leadership at any point in time. In the very early days, there was a real question as to whether these silly solid body electric guitars would even last, as many in the musical instrument hierarchy just considered them a fad! I'd imagine the thought of actually having to defend against copies was the last thing anyone anticipated.

But, the thing with intellectual property is that if you don't defend it, others will usurp it.
It is odd though. The LP has been around nearly as long as the Strat…. Yet Fender couldn’t win its court battles and Gibson is. Maybe Fender should have hired better lawyers????
 
It is odd though. The LP has been around nearly as long as the Strat…. Yet Fender couldn’t win its court battles and Gibson is. Maybe Fender should have hired better lawyers????

I think part of the "problem" is that the Stratocaster was just more successful than anyone could have imagined. The Les Paul was actually a failure. After just a few years - due mostly to Les Paul, the musician, becoming less popular - sales of the Les Paul guitar dropped continuously. Gibson, seeing how much more successful the Stratocaster was, redesigned the Les Paul to give us what became the Gibson SG. But, the traditional Les Paul guitar went out of production until it was rediscovered by the likes of Clapton, Page, and Beck. Then, Gibson reintroduced it.

Conversely, the Stratocaster's popularity continued until it, almost literally, became the definition of the electric guitar. If you look up "Electric Guitar" in some dictionaries, the image provided will be the Stratocaster. By the time Fender decided to sue, it was pretty much too late. The success of the instrument became the failure of the lawsuit. Essentially, the courts ruled that the Strat shape no longer was inseparably linked to the Fender name and was too universal and ubiquitous in the industry.
 
While my G400 is not all original Epi….. along the way I had a guy that has been around every brand of guitar imaginable. Played them all. Told me my “G” is every bit as good as a genuine Gibson….. it just doesn’t say it on the headstock….. So I get it.
I'm with you. I have 2 Epi explorers and they play fantastic.
 
Although I have a Chambered Gretsch and a Les Paul Jr style guitar, my two Strat style Godin's and my Custom Tele, are my most played guitars..
 
Because the Stratocaster - by its very name - is almost out of this world.

That was actually Fender's intention!

They were capitalizing on the emerging space race and wanted to make something futuristic.
 
Although I have a Chambered Gretsch and a Les Paul Jr style guitar, my two Strat style Godin's and my Custom Tele, are my most played guitars..

Generally, if I'm gonna just play for the sake of playing, I'll usually go for the White Falcon. Everything just feels right on that guitar.

But, I'm usually working on tunes that we do in the band, so I'm normally playing either the Strat or the Les Paul. I probably play the Strat on about 60% of our songs. Most of the rest are with the Lester. There are a couple where I use the Jackson for an '80s vibe and the Floyd Rose.
 
It gets pretty convoluted doesn't it!

I'm not a lawyer, but if I was, I would specialize in patent, trademark, and copywrite law. This stuff just fascinates me. Whenever any of this musical instrument lawsuit stuff comes up, I may spend hours researching it, just 'cuz I'm weird, like that!
There's a well defined line between defending ethical cases, and most of the patent/copyright infringement cases being tried which is an exploitation of the system.
 
People are still going to make "V's" and that is all I care about. I wouldn't buy a Les Paul from Dean however the Dean "V" seemed like an original idea. I suppose they have other "V" shapes.

There are ways around it by changing the symmetrical wings. Zelinski sold Dean, he came up with the design but is no longer involved.

I guess Dimes guitar would due.
 
While my G400 is not all original Epi….. along the way I had a guy that has been around every brand of guitar imaginable. Played them all. Told me my “G” is every bit as good as a genuine Gibson….. it just doesn’t say it on the headstock….. So I get it.
If my EPI G400 had a rounder neck profile I would not have made the recent Gibson SG Tribute purchase.
They are noticeably different and I like the bevel cuts on the Gibson body by a lot, but the EPI is a fine guitar.
Still waiting on the Tribute pots repair, only played it 2x for a total of about 3hrs. ...sigh....
 
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