Can you hear the "hollow" in an electric guitar?
- Thread starter RVA
- Start date
syscokid
Ambassador of War & Peace
The "hollowness" comes from certain frequencies either subdued or enhanced which are consistent with... uhm... hollowness.
Dang... I think I just freaked myself out...
chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
Here is another factor I don't think is explained re: hollow vs Solid re: pickups,
Not only do pickups amplify strings vibrating, but the pickups themselves may vibrate due to flex in the thinner face of the hollow guitars vs solid. I don't know how one can achieve, "with the same amount of vibration," but I do think it makes logical sense that if one mounts a pair of pickups and electronics on a 2x4 with a neck mounted to it, then mount the neck and strings to a wooden cigar box with the same electronics and I guarantee you will hear a difference.
chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
This whole statement confuses me, Ray.
Especially since I posted 3 different clips with not only 2 different hollow Byrdlands ( Live and in person, I can tell you both of the ones played by Ted are vastly different from themselves. Then I posted an example of his PRS sound from 1995. So I am not sure where " whether a particular guitar can sound different..." enters the conversation.
My examples of sound differences are Ted's percussive, ballsy, woody, almost like a wild beast ready to roar Byrdland tones, vs Derek St Holmes Les Paul/ Double Cut, and Ted's PRS sound when compared to one another.
chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
To me the Low E notes sound like an Upright Bass in Joe Pass's hands.
Speaking of Hollow Vs Solid.
An Upright Bass even Mic'd up sounds different than Fender P or J now doesn't it?
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OP
RVA
Ambassador
Sorry Chili. Honestly, my screen only loaded one clip, which is the reason I posted that.
OP
RVA
Ambassador
I own 4 semihollows. I bet no one can pick them out in blind clips. That is when these theories all fall apart. Same settings, played clean and simple open chords. I can record 4 different semi v solid clips OR a clip of 8 guitars and you all can pick the semihollows from the solids.
OP
RVA
Ambassador
But it hits the pickup before the wood.The "hollowness" comes from certain frequencies either subdued or enhanced which are consistent with... uhm... hollowness.
Dang... I think I just freaked myself out...
Now, you say the wood affects the strings. Chili says the wood vibrates the pickups. So now those two factors must interact AND (here is the big one)...you have to hear it. AND, it is supposed to survive your cables, buffers, true bypass, amp input jacks, tubes, etc. EVERY TIME, so that people can marvel at how much the semihollowness softens their tone. Not buying it.
chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
OP
RVA
Ambassador
With the same pickups and rig? With a 50/50 chance, I do not think most could guess 3x out of 4. However, I do think that most people think they could. I thought I could until I really started listening to my cs336 because I wanted to justify buying an es335. It didn't work.
Gahr
Ambassador of Blues & Brews
Of course my semi-hollow Epiphone Dot sounds different to my Gibson SG Derek Trucks. The Epi has Seymour Duncan Phat Cats in it and the SG Throbak PG 102s. And the pups are placed at different distances from their respective bridges.
I guess what people perceive as a general difference between the guitar types really stems from the fact that hollows and solids tend to be used for different styles of music where the gitar tones are different. Hence hollows are associated with more "woolly" jazz tones in general. Whatever real difference the body of the guitar contributes tonally is bound to be so small it will be dwarfed by the amp, pickups, pickup placement etc.
I guess what people perceive as a general difference between the guitar types really stems from the fact that hollows and solids tend to be used for different styles of music where the gitar tones are different. Hence hollows are associated with more "woolly" jazz tones in general. Whatever real difference the body of the guitar contributes tonally is bound to be so small it will be dwarfed by the amp, pickups, pickup placement etc.
Tony M.
Ambassador
With the same amount of vibration there would be no difference,
...BUT...
If you take 2 strings of the same gauge and put them both on 24 3/4 scale guitars,
lets say an SG and an ES 335 both equipped with a 57 classic in the bridge position,
tune them to the same pitch, select that pickup and pluck those strings in the same
spot with the same amount of force you will NOT get the same amount of vibration.
The entire ASDR of the plucked string will be noticeably different.
All the stuff the string anchor points are attached to will affect the string vibration.
Different guitar construction, different stuff, different string vibration.
chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
Gahr, this may be the case for some, and I know what Ray is trying to say about very few people could differentiate hollow vs solid, or soild vs solid or different age and model of guitar if they hear clips or live examples of various guitars without being able to see the guitars demonstrated.
However, if I were to hear a certain guitar player playing the same song either all at one sitting, or over the course of time on various guitars, I'd be able to tell which he used if presented with a list to choose from. I also don't put type of guitars into neat little boxes depending on style of music normally played on a particular type of guitar.
Gahr
Ambassador of Blues & Brews
Yes, there is no doubt differences between guitars, but my point is simply that the body type is not really a major factor. Pickup type and pickup placement are far more important. All other factors being identical, I think it would be rather difficult to differentiate between them. Personally, my ears are pretty screwed from loud rock ‘n’ roll in my youth and a noisy workplace anyway, so I would definitely have problems...
OP
RVA
Ambassador
Bridge to placement affects relative string tension over the pickup, hencevibration in this area. Scale affectsoverall string tension, hence overall vibration. In an event, none of what you said has anything to do with hollowness.
OP
RVA
Ambassador
I disagree, although everyone thins they can, which is why this debate rages on. Remember when Coke and Pepsi finally had a challenge? I challenge all who say they can tell wood tone to do it. What you will get: lots of complaints about the integretity of the test, no matter how it is done. What you won't get: accuracy.
Which is exactly why I have made a very verbose point in other threads about tests being done in a controlled environment with test equipment, and not just listening tests which are subject to the hearing abilities of individuals.
Such tests would demonstrate, apart from human biases, if there is a difference, and to what degree. If such testing indicates there is a difference but just shy of being audible, it may provide insights into ways to exploit materials and construction to carry those differences over the threshold to become audible. Or, such testing my indicate no difference, at all...putting the entire question to rest. Or, they may indicate there is a difference, but so insignificant as to be beyond usage.
*******
Now, because I think listening tests are flawed...I'm going to treat you to a ...wait for it... a listening test!!!
Yay!
This is just for entertainment and doesn't really prove anything, but it's kind of fun. The actual test starts around 8:00 where they try to distinguish between a Gibson SG, ES-335, and Les Paul.
I get a kick out of the Anderton's gear reviews and listening tests.
(As a bonus, at 20:12 they guess between Gibson and Epiphone!)
********
BTW, you're getting colder.
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chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
Ray, I am not talking about a "random" blind test. I am talking about the likes of say posting a selection of Who songs from different eras. Or say Derek and the Dominoes vs. current EC on a Strat vs his ES335 woman tone Beano sound. Then mix in Keith Richards on a 335 vs a Telecaster, Alex Lifeson circa 1974 vs 1984 vs 2014.
Some interesting reading on Pete's Gretsch, there is a confusion even from Pete and Joe Walsh who gave him the guitar/ amp/ pedal as to if it is a Chet Atkins 6120 or a Country Gent,. Either way, his playing on Who's Next is unlike any previous or subsequent albums.
1959 Fender Bandmaster Amplifier | Pete Townshend’s Guitar Gear | Whotabs
Some interesting reading on Pete's Gretsch, there is a confusion even from Pete and Joe Walsh who gave him the guitar/ amp/ pedal as to if it is a Chet Atkins 6120 or a Country Gent,. Either way, his playing on Who's Next is unlike any previous or subsequent albums.
1959 Fender Bandmaster Amplifier | Pete Townshend’s Guitar Gear | Whotabs
chilipeppermaniac
Ambassador of Decibels
Check out Leslie West on Baby Don't You Do it.
This is also some of the most killer drum licks I have heard on a song I never knew existed,.
eSGEe
Ferengi Ambassador of Trade
A spirited debate-----how quaint ----
SO Ray--- when will you be posting the 4 hollow V 4 solid test?
Will all have same scale length---brand and gauge of string --pickup configuration-- Using the same pick--all going to same amp on same settings recorded on same device?
I would do it but I only have 1959 Hollow Body Harmony and ---it sounds different than any solid I have hanging on the walls........so......Im out ....
I got it Send me the 8 guitars in Question and I will do a Double Blind test with Hackmaster and Drumoid!!!
really----I will...........eventually
SO Ray--- when will you be posting the 4 hollow V 4 solid test?
Will all have same scale length---brand and gauge of string --pickup configuration-- Using the same pick--all going to same amp on same settings recorded on same device?
I would do it but I only have 1959 Hollow Body Harmony and ---it sounds different than any solid I have hanging on the walls........so......Im out ....
I got it Send me the 8 guitars in Question and I will do a Double Blind test with Hackmaster and Drumoid!!!
really----I will...........eventually