Amps get too sharp

Jay Cee

Jay Cee

Member
Is it me or do most amps get too sharp when they get loud? Seems like they should actually lose about 25% of that sharp 3.2k or higher area, gradually, as you up the volume. Think of a 6505mh presence at 2:00/3:00 low volume has the same sharpness as when you crank it at 12:00. The next amp i buy is going to be one that doesn't do this as much, which i'm hoping is the Mt-15...
 
It's the Fletcher-Munson curve - at higher volume levels we perceive treble & bass as being more prominent. Louder often seems harsher.
That's the reason behind the Loudness button on old stereos, to boost bass & treble for low-level listening.

Another possible contributing factor is beaminess in speakers. At high volumes we're often further out in front of our amps, where we hear more of the treble that shoots straight forward rather than spreading out the way lower frequencies do. This is why mic'd sound to tape or PA often sounds quite different from the way we normally hear our own amp.

It can be pretty unsettling. One hack that can help a lot is to dial in your tones at full gig volume, while standing at least eight or ten feet away out in front - or with the amp up at ear level, or at the very least tilted up aiming at your ears.

That way you'll get a much more realistic idea of what your amp really sounds like to the microphone and the audience.
I always used to put my cabinet up on its roadcase if I couldn't stand at least ten feet away.

Of course, the breakup of some amps is different when they're driven hard. Some really are literally harsher in tone.

But IME other factors have been to blame in most cases.
 
Interesting...

I'm set up to the left of our singer. This is her first band, but she's just a natural singer.

She asks me, "How come your guitar is so loud but doesn't hurt my ears like the other guitars?"

That's when I start singing, "it's all about that bass..."

I tend to favor the lower frequencies, and it allows me to push more volume.

If I had a Creamback or a Greenback in my cabinet, I would have already blown them to pieces, but the Jensen Jet Neodymium 100 watt (and the 75 watt Electro-Harmonix 12VR75 before it) take the pounding in stride.

You can literally feel the air coming off my amp speaker.
 
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That is the reason for tone controls. I often see this at jams where people are not used to playing at loud volumes. They get frustrated that they can't duplicate the tone they get at home. Home practice tone and loud jam or live tone have very different settings on your amp.
 
eclecticsynergy said:
It's the Fletcher-Munson curve - at higher volume levels we perceive treble & bass as being more prominent. Louder often seems harsher.
That's the reason behind the Loudness button on old stereos, to boost bass & treble for low-level listening.

Another possible contributing factor is beaminess in speakers. At high volumes we're often further out in front of our amps, where we hear more of the treble that shoots straight forward rather than spreading out the way lower frequencies do. This is why mic'd sound to tape or PA often sounds quite different from the way we normally hear our own amp.

It can be pretty unsettling. One hack that can help a lot is to dial in your tones at full gig volume, while standing at least eight or ten feet away out in front - or with the amp up at ear level, or at the very least tilted up aiming at your ears.

That way you'll get a much more realistic idea of what your amp really sounds like to the microphone and the audience.
I always used to put my cabinet up on its roadcase if I couldn't stand at least ten feet away.

Of course, the breakup of some amps is different when they're driven hard. Some really are literally harsher in tone.

But IME other factors have been to blame in most cases.
Click to expand...

Excellent post, Man...
 
Kerry Brown said:
That is the reason for tone controls. I often see this at jams where people are not used to playing at loud volumes. They get frustrated that they can't duplicate the tone they get at home. Home practice tone and loud jam or live tone have very different settings on your amp.
Click to expand...

My live rig is always dialed for stage volume and it doesn't sound great at lower levels, so I never change it.

At home, you can't beat a Blackstar ID-core 100 2x10 Stereo Solid State Amp for low volume practice...and it weighs 13 pounds.
 
Jay Cee said:
Is it me or do most amps get too sharp when they get loud? Seems like they should actually lose about 25% of that sharp 3.2k or higher area, gradually, as you up the volume. Think of a 6505mh presence at 2:00/3:00 low volume has the same sharpness as when you crank it at 12:00. The next amp i buy is going to be one that doesn't do this as much, which i'm hoping is the Mt-15...
Click to expand...

True, as you turn the volume up, the high frequency does increase.
It's the design everybody is using.

But you can use a "beam blocker."
Or you can use some other method other than master volume to control loudness.
 
Jay Cee said:
Is it me or do most amps get too sharp when they get loud? Seems like they should actually lose about 25% of that sharp 3.2k or higher area, gradually, as you up the volume. Think of a 6505mh presence at 2:00/3:00 low volume has the same sharpness as when you crank it at 12:00. The next amp i buy is going to be one that doesn't do this as much, which i'm hoping is the Mt-15...
Click to expand...

I don't know a thing about amp design but I have always attributed this effect to how bad the speaker seems to be breaking up. Some seem to do it more, some less and it is much worse, in my personal experience, with less drivers. If I crank up a single-speaker cabinet to gig volume I will have to tweak the EQ to tame the spike, but when I get to the same volume through my 4x12 not only is the master on the amp lower but I really don't get the same spike, even with the same speaker type in both cabs. I'm sure it's largely just our ears being more sensitive to those "baby scream" frequencies, as stated above, but from an EQ standpoint that's what I have noticed myself

Kerry Brown said:
That is the reason for tone controls. I often see this at jams where people are not used to playing at loud volumes. They get frustrated that they can't duplicate the tone they get at home. Home practice tone and loud jam or live tone have very different settings on your amp.
Click to expand...

So, so common. I too tend to dial everything in for a smooth, balanced tone when I am playing alone. All bets are off with the band though, and every time I finish up dialing in my amp when playing with other people I will take it home with the same settings and think it just sounds terrible alone, but in the band setting it cut through and found its own frequencies to occupy in the mix. I always trip out when I hear the isolation tracks of very famous recordings, because the tone is almost universally something we'd all cringe about if we were playing alone. Zero bass, spiky midrange, a lot less distortion than you thought, a lot more effects than you thought, etc.
 
In addition to adjusting the amp for the volume you are playing at you will also have to adjust your pedals. With a tube amp at loud volumes you will overdrive it horribly if you leave your pedals with the same settings you use at low volume. I generally tone down the treble and the drive and the mix on pedals as the amp volume goes up. Then again at loud volumes I find I rarely need any effects except reverb.
 
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eclecticsynergy said:
It's the Fletcher-Munson curve - at higher volume levels we perceive treble & bass as being more prominent. Louder often seems harsher.
That's the reason behind the Loudness button on old stereos, to boost bass & treble for low-level listening.

Another possible contributing factor is beaminess in speakers. At high volumes we're often further out in front of our amps, where we hear more of the treble that shoots straight forward rather than spreading out the way lower frequencies do. This is why mic'd sound to tape or PA often sounds quite different from the way we normally hear our own amp.

It can be pretty unsettling. One hack that can help a lot is to dial in your tones at full gig volume, while standing at least eight or ten feet away out in front - or with the amp up at ear level, or at the very least tilted up aiming at your ears.

That way you'll get a much more realistic idea of what your amp really sounds like to the microphone and the audience.
I always used to put my cabinet up on its roadcase if I couldn't stand at least ten feet away.

Of course, the breakup of some amps is different when they're driven hard. Some really are literally harsher in tone.

But IME other factors have been to blame in most cases.
Click to expand...
Great explanation
 
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