57 Classics good enough for Tracii Guns in his SG
- Thread starter mdubya
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E.sg can you move my off topic posts to a new post???
Sérgio
Ambassador of CaliZilian Affairs
^^^ No worries and no offense or disrespect taken.
It is certainly valuable and interesting to hear your experience. Curious that the trouble occurred with the quick connect pickups.
It is funny, some find 57's dark and muddy, others find them to be too bright. Many find the early ones (from the 90's, the earlier the better) to be much better than modern examples. I have a very early 90's 57+ which is just awesome. I also have them from 2009 and 2014 (the regular Classic and the Classic + varieties). They all sound a little bit different in individual guitars. It is surprising how closely they can be dialed in, though.
I prefer a 57+ in the bridge with a 300k volume pot. I have a regular classic in the neck of my Epiphone Sheraton with a 500k pot and it is close to perfect in that guitar.
This thread was meant to be a nod to the old etsg forum; so many of us loved 57's in our SG's. I thought is was cool that Tracii felt no need to change out the 57's in his SG, one of his favorite and well used current guitars. Validation for us 57 lovers.
Your faded brown SG is spectacular! Love it! :dood::dood::dood:
Now, a little bit more seriously:
I think it comes down to one thing: when people ask me if I like a pickup model, my answer is: that depends on hwich guitar I'll be putting it into, and how that guitar is wired.
Pickups have distinctive properties, but they will sound different when loaded into different guitars and played through different amps.
For instance: in my own experience, 57's sound KILLER through Orange and Marshall amplification, but Fender amps make them too thin, I dislike what I hear when I play them.
My SG seems to ooze mojo when I play it through an Orange amp, I tried it with a solid state and valve one.
That could very well be. I can't comment on that. I only play through Marshall amps...always have. The only other "Brand X" amp that impressed me was the Blackstar Stereo Combo 40 watt, and that by virtue of its delay effect, but for tone, it was lacking. For me, my 'magical tone' can only be found with a tube Marshall at full volume.
Listen to Gary Moore's Cold Day in Hell Live in London 1992. Gary is running full volume, and has to roll the volume on and off before and after every lick. You cannot achieve that kind of tone any other way. That's the altar I worship at....
On the subject of Gibson in general....Like everything Gibson, quality and individual experiences are all over the map.
I had three sets of Gibson pickups in a row that sounded the SAME in both a Gibson and Fender and exhibited the same noisy characteristics. That was enough for me. Fortunately, I sold the 57 Classics, two sets of 490's and two complete Gibson PCB's for enough to more than recover my investment.
Last night, I handed my Gibson SG to a fellow guitarist and he raved about the tone from the Tone Man harnessK40Y caps and "famous Gibson humbuckers." After about 30 minutes, I showed him the GFS boxes and he refused to believe that those "cheap, dimestore pickups" could produce that sound.
Oh yes, the bumblebee simply cannot fly according to physics.
As far as pickups are concerned, I have literally done it all. From paying $5,500 once for a set of original Gibson 1959 PAF's (and yes, that was stupid even though I had the money), to Bare Knuckles, Benson, Lawrence, Lollar, Frailn, Thro-Bak (not to mention DiMarzio and Duncan) here is what I have learned about guitar pickups.
Quiet signal and good tone are #1, regardless of who makes the product. I have played $400 Epiphone's that sounded better than $2,500 Gibsons. I will give you this example. My guitar tech buddy recently took a 1980's er Gibson les paul in on trade. It truly sounded amazing. Everyone commented on it. When he finally pulled the pickups, they were Epiphone 57 CH's/HOTCH.
That truly pissed off the Gibson "cork sniffers," who insisted being there when the 'seal was broken" so to speak. I will use what works best, regardless of brand loyalty.
Personally speaking, I have found that the QUIETEST, most versatile and most adjustable guitar pickups are Carvins. for around $60/each. Better than Lollar, Frailin, Bare Knuckles, Lawrence, Benson, Thro-Bak. DiMarzio and Duncan.
I will say that this set of brand new GFS Classic II's (Alinco II, Nickel Covers, Double Wax Potted 7.93k bridge / 7.88k neck @ 56°F) really are surprising. I'm working on shooting some video of them so you can compare them to my existing videos of the SG. In three sets of Gibson pickups, this is the BEST and QUIETEST my SG has ever sounded, and I evaluated the Gibson's with PCB, with a Tone Man vintage harness and even tried them in my 1987 Squire Stratocaster.
So, in the end, to each their own. Use what works.
For me, the #1 attribute of ANY pickup is quiet operation, resistance to EMI/RFI and use around PC based recording software. Following that is tone, clarity, absence of muddiness and shrillness.
It really doesn't matter to me who makes it.....
Sérgio
Ambassador of CaliZilian Affairs
Yeah, I can tell that you do have a problem with noise in general. You mention that quite often.
As a matter of fact, in my experience, most any electric guitar will hiss eventually, depending on where you play it and the grounding of the venue. Thing is, I think up to a certain level, noise is part of the job and we gotta live with it...
As a matter of fact, in my experience, most any electric guitar will hiss eventually, depending on where you play it and the grounding of the venue. Thing is, I think up to a certain level, noise is part of the job and we gotta live with it...
Sérgio
Ambassador of CaliZilian Affairs
I thought of us SG fanatics when Tracii posted this the other day. Custom Shop LP/SG with 57 Classics.
In action. I love Tracii's playing.
btw where did he post that? I'd love to see more.
Noise is a big pet peeve of mine....but, here is the kicker. My Schecter has been played on over 300 recordings. It is totally silent under all conditions, including outdoor venues, small clubs, barns, etc. The GFS Classic II's are silent in my 2016 Gibson SG. The DiMarzio VV Solo/HS3/YJM in my 1987 Squire are totally silent under all types of conditions.
I recently played a new, China made Jackson that was quiet when held up to a florescent light fixture and when seated in front of a tube Marshall at elevated volumes.
My question is, why can't Gibson deliver equal quality/performance for 3 times (or more) the cost of a Chinese Jackson???
So, with that in mind, I just will not tolerate a noisy guitar...
Now on the AC power side of the equation, you need both a filter/rectifier with +, neutral and - grounding capability. I learned a lot about grounding/hum/noise issues from Trace Foster and Greg Howard, who have run huge rigs on power supplies from all over the world.
The reality is, cleaning up the AC signal is easy. The guitar, however, is like a huge antenna....
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For example,
When I recorded "Slide - Tribute to The Kings of The Delta Blues" in 2011, I wanted a really, super authentic 1920's slide guitar part in the song's first few measures. For this part of the song, I borrowed a genuine 1928 National Triolian Resonator from a friend's collection. This instrument had been fitted with a screw-on external pickup many years after it was made. I played this through a 1959 Sears Silvertone #1451 5 watt tube amp. I think this combination has to be one of the nosiest setups I have ever heard.
If you listen with headphones, you will hear the buzzing when the channel opens up. The signal isn't clear either. It's quite dull sonically. This was expected, based on the antiquity of the equipment used and, it would be "period correct" for the music/recording technology of that era, so I chose to leave it in there.
Slide part begins at 30 second mark:
https://soundcloud.com/robert-h-her...blues-2011-robert-herndon-all-rights-reserved
Conversely, if you listen to the lead guitar parts, played on a 2005 Schecter Hellraiser (EMG 81/85) through a Marshall JTM 30 Tube Combo at nearly full volume, you will hear no noise on the tracks.
That's my evaluation standard...
Yes, being OCD can cause you to evaluate everything under a tonal microspcope...
Be glad you are not affected by these issues....
Col Mustard
Ambassador of Perseverance
Love my '57 Classic and Classic + ...and I've never played a Marshall amp.
I've tried a few in stores, and didn't care for the sound of them. Never bought one, never
borrowed one. *shrugs I really know nothing about Marshall amps, except that other guys
seem to like them. So I don't say much about them. If I was going to buy a new classic
tube amp, it would likely be a Fender Deluxe. I'm sure I can get great tone out of that, with
any of my guitars.
And I think Sergio's right... you can't make a meaningful general statement about any pickup
without also discussing what the signal chain is. I took the 490s out of my SG in like 2009 and
installed them in my Step daughter's Epiphone Les Paul Special ll, and they sound great in that'
guitar, played through her Fender G-DEC. --to my ear anyway, and hers. I think they sound better
in that inexpensive Les Paul than they did in my SG.
I didn't mind the 490s in the SG, only wished for more output from the bridge 490T. I used several different
amps (none of which were very expensive) and was able to get a usable tone in each case. Slightly different
sounding, but useable. I don't mind that either. I'm likely to explore the tone I find with any combination
rather than struggling to make it something that it's not. The 490s were noiseless as issued from the Gibson
factory, which is what we should expect. And my music is adaptable to many different tones. I only bought
the '57s because I wanted the best for my baby. I confess to being slightly obsessed with that one instrument.
And totally head over heels... arse over teakettle.
In my SG faded special, the '57s are brilliant, musical and excellent in all the frequencies... plenty of growl,
midrange is tough and present and sparkly jangly highs with no ice pick. That SG, with those pickups and
my Martin SixString wiring harness, played through my amps (especially my Vox VT-30 or my Orange Micro Terror)
is simply stunning. The best guitar I've ever played. My SG is dead silent, witn no need for shielding.
Go figure. I can't argue with Robert, because he knows his stuff. All I can say is: I'm happy with mine.
My other SG, the 2012 SG special with mini humbuckers, is also dead silent with no need for shielding.
That wiring is completely stock... because I like it so well.
My Vox VT-30 hisses a little, but it's not the guitar's fault. My Orange Micro Terror is pretty quiet.
And so is my Blackheart Little Giant. Those three amps give excellent tone with all of my instruments,
but especially with my favorite SG special.
So I'm happy to recommend the '57s without reservation.
I've tried a few in stores, and didn't care for the sound of them. Never bought one, never
borrowed one. *shrugs I really know nothing about Marshall amps, except that other guys
seem to like them. So I don't say much about them. If I was going to buy a new classic
tube amp, it would likely be a Fender Deluxe. I'm sure I can get great tone out of that, with
any of my guitars.
And I think Sergio's right... you can't make a meaningful general statement about any pickup
without also discussing what the signal chain is. I took the 490s out of my SG in like 2009 and
installed them in my Step daughter's Epiphone Les Paul Special ll, and they sound great in that'
guitar, played through her Fender G-DEC. --to my ear anyway, and hers. I think they sound better
in that inexpensive Les Paul than they did in my SG.
I didn't mind the 490s in the SG, only wished for more output from the bridge 490T. I used several different
amps (none of which were very expensive) and was able to get a usable tone in each case. Slightly different
sounding, but useable. I don't mind that either. I'm likely to explore the tone I find with any combination
rather than struggling to make it something that it's not. The 490s were noiseless as issued from the Gibson
factory, which is what we should expect. And my music is adaptable to many different tones. I only bought
the '57s because I wanted the best for my baby. I confess to being slightly obsessed with that one instrument.
And totally head over heels... arse over teakettle.
In my SG faded special, the '57s are brilliant, musical and excellent in all the frequencies... plenty of growl,
midrange is tough and present and sparkly jangly highs with no ice pick. That SG, with those pickups and
my Martin SixString wiring harness, played through my amps (especially my Vox VT-30 or my Orange Micro Terror)
is simply stunning. The best guitar I've ever played. My SG is dead silent, witn no need for shielding.
Go figure. I can't argue with Robert, because he knows his stuff. All I can say is: I'm happy with mine.
My other SG, the 2012 SG special with mini humbuckers, is also dead silent with no need for shielding.
That wiring is completely stock... because I like it so well.
My Vox VT-30 hisses a little, but it's not the guitar's fault. My Orange Micro Terror is pretty quiet.
And so is my Blackheart Little Giant. Those three amps give excellent tone with all of my instruments,
but especially with my favorite SG special.
So I'm happy to recommend the '57s without reservation.
Gahr
Ambassador of Blues & Brews
I'm certainly glad I'm not OCD when it comes to pickups. I think "what is good" boils down to what each individual thinks of as good. I'm no fan of really high gain tones in blues, like for instance the tone Gary Moore has in your posted clip, @Robert Herndon. Don't get me wrong, I dig Gary Moore, but I tend to like his tone on the Greeny album much better than on a lot of the other blues stuff he's done. I'm not bothered by a little (a little, not a lot!) noise or hiss either. But come to think of it, I haven't noticed any noise in any of my Gibsons (apart from a little in the P90 equipped Les Paul Junior, but i suppose that is to be expected). And when the drummer kicks in... I'm pretty sure I would have been super happy with your SG Special, Robert. But to each his own!
Thank you, Colonel...and bless you...but I only know the results of my experiments...
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I'm certainly glad I'm not OCD when it comes to pickups. I think "what is good" boils down to what each individual thinks of as good. I'm no fan of really high gain tones in blues, like for instance the tone Gary Moore has in your posted clip, @Robert Herndon. Don't get me wrong, I dig Gary Moore, but I tend to like his tone on the Greeny album much better than on a lot of the other blues stuff he's done. I'm not bothered by a little (a little, not a lot!) noise or hiss either. But come to think of it, I haven't noticed any noise in any of my Gibsons (apart from a little in the P90 equipped Les Paul Junior, but i suppose that is to be expected). And when the drummer kicks in... I'm pretty sure I would have been super happy with your SG Special, Robert. But to each his own!
OCD/Adult ADHD is awful to deal with...You are truly blessed my friend!!!!
However, I am happy to say that after installing 9 feet (no joke) of copper tape ($15) into my 2016 Gibson SG, a $90 Tone Man Harness and a pair of $75 GFS Classic II's (Alinco II) my 2016 Gibson SG is finally quiet with a VERY pre-1980's AC/DC tone. (I won't put a pricetage on swapping in three different sets of Gibson pickups to get to this point, along with $50 in custom made Molex 5 wire adapter harnesses)
I'm doing some Rory Gallagher stuff with the band now. I play his stuff on the clean channel of my Marshall DSL40C...and high gain doesn't sound right on Rory's stuff, to my ear anyways...
Colonel, I really do value your expertise and opinions and I genuinely enjoy your postings...
With regards to my 2016 Gibson SG...I really wanted to keep it 100% Gibson. To that end, I purchased a brand new set of Gibson 57 Classics, a pair of "revised specification" 490T/490R's out of a 2017 Gibson Les Paul Tribute and, of course, my original 2015 Gibson 490's out of my 2016 SG. I tried them with and without the circuit boards and with and without shielding. After that, I just gave up. In fact, the SG sat in the case for quite some time disassembled. I offered it to a couple of forum members for $450 with case, but a deal never materialized.
Eventually, I spoke to my friend Fil Oliveiri of Solo Dallas fame, and asked him if he would share the measurements taken from Angus Young's original Gibson SG, upon which he based his new pickups, custom made by Thro-Bak. The early Angus Young pickups were inspected and found to be Alinco II PAF's around 7.5k impedance.
http://www.throbak.com/solo70ttop.html
After comparing the specs of Angus' original pickups (a sound which I had always liked and one my vintage 1968 Gibson SG delivered, aside from noise and tuning anomalies) I decided that what I needed was a nickel covered, dual string spaced, PAF clone, with Alinco II magnets and impedance in the 7.5k range...
Carvin didn't offer a nickel covered PAf with exposed pole pieces, so I looked to GFS. Their Classic II (Alinco II Nickel Covers, Bridge & Neck String Spaced) is double wax potted and measured 7.93k bridge and 7.88k neck @ 56°F....close enough, since we do not know at what temperature the originals were measured at.
The result is a super quiet, very warm PAF tone that isn't muddy and has very precise clarity. I am quite certain that 9 feet of copper tape, the Tone Man wire harness, with 500k audio/linear (mixed) Bourns tone/volume pots, push back wire and .033uf/.015uf K40Y Russian tone capcitors have some bearing on this too, but in the end, this is what it took to get my 2016 Gibson SG usable.
I am a little disappointed it took this much time and effort....
I agree...and in some cases, they come close, but it is indeed unfortunate that when you Google quality control issues with Gibson you are hit with so many problems.
Both E.SG, Wav Mixer and I have purchased problematical Gibson's. Two of my colleagues here in SoCal sent back $3,000 Gibson Les Paul's with construction problems that Gibson warranty could not address.
You are very fortunate, Colonel...likely blessed. Your SG is like my Schecter. $1,145 new in 2005 and worked flawlessly and silently from day one and it remains totally stock.