Thoughts???
Difference between WGS Veteran 30 and Retro 30:
- Thread starter Inspector #20
- Start date
I'm not a big Vintage 30 fan, so I have not delved in to these models...but this may help a little if you haven't seen it yet.
https://wgsusa.com/sites/all/themes/wgs/files/WGS-tonechart.pdf
https://wgsusa.com/sites/all/themes/wgs/files/WGS-tonechart.pdf
OP
Reading....
If you have any questions about the:
HM75
ET65
Reaper
Reaper 55hz
Green Beret
I would be happy to share.
HM75
ET65
Reaper
Reaper 55hz
Green Beret
I would be happy to share.
OP
Would love to hear your opinions. Looking for a sweet speaker with warm lows, no midrange spike and not real bright...in 12" 16 ohm....
HM75 is beefy. I have a pair in a 4x12, in an X pattern, with a pair of Green Berets. The HM75s really fatten up the crunchy Green Berets.(The Green Berets definitely do not meet your requirements, as they are a little hairy in the high end, with a mid punch)
Reaper is slightly scooped.
Reaper 55hz is no longer available, but meets your requirements pretty well.
ET65 took a long time to break in, for me, but once it is broken in...it's a beast.(I had it in a 2x12 with a Reaper to start, but didn't like it much...it sounded nasally in the high end...I put it in a 1x12, and used it for punk projects, and living room play...now it's broken in, and sweet. No more nasally high end at all. Just my experience with it. All of my other WGS speakers settled right in, in short order.)
I don't know if that's of any help to you.
Reaper is slightly scooped.
Reaper 55hz is no longer available, but meets your requirements pretty well.
ET65 took a long time to break in, for me, but once it is broken in...it's a beast.(I had it in a 2x12 with a Reaper to start, but didn't like it much...it sounded nasally in the high end...I put it in a 1x12, and used it for punk projects, and living room play...now it's broken in, and sweet. No more nasally high end at all. Just my experience with it. All of my other WGS speakers settled right in, in short order.)
I don't know if that's of any help to you.
OP
Lots of things to ponder!
OP
Funny you would mention the Reaper 55Hz....I found one!
OP
The Truth about 75Hz vs. 55Hz Guitar Speaker Cones
I’ll just bet that you have noticed that the WGS Reaper is available either with the (standard) 75Hz, or 55Hz cone. Several other speaker manufacturers also offer this option. But, what does it really mean in terms of tone? Let’s talk about that.
First, we need to understand that the natural response of the raw cone is not the same as the final natural response of the completed speaker, which is expressed as the speaker’s Resonant Frequency (abbreviated Fs). Here is the textbook description of a speaker’s Fs:
“Also called F0, resonance frequency measured in hertz (Hz). The frequency at which the combination of the energy stored in the moving mass and suspension compliance is maximum, and results in maximum cone velocity. A more compliant suspension or a larger moving mass will cause a lower resonance frequency, and vice versa. Usually it is less efficient to produce output at frequencies below Fs, and input signals significantly below Fscan cause large excursions, mechanically endangering the driver. Woofers typically have an Fsin the range of 13–60 Hz. Midranges usually have an Fs in the range of 60–500 Hz and tweeters between 500 Hz and 4 kHz. A typical factory tolerance for Fs spec is ±15%.”
Here is a more abbreviated description:
“This is the free-air resonance of a speaker; it's the frequency that the speaker wants to vibrate at. This is a result of the weight of the moving parts (cone, etc) in balance with the stiffness of the speaker's suspension. At a speaker's Fs the speaker will over emphasize (make louder) that frequency and cause crossover points to change due to impedance variances. For accurate sound reproduction these frequency peaks must be controlled (kept flat).”
So, the final Fs of a speaker is: 1) the frequency at which it naturally wants to resonate, and 2) is a result of the balance (tuning) between the speaker’s moving parts and the suspension. Think about those two points for a second. Let’s make this comparison: take the A-string on your guitar; would you say that its Fs is 110Hz? Well, yes and no. When the guitar is TUNED to standard (A-440) then, yes, apx. 110Hz would be the frequency at which that string resonates. However, the string can be tuned to resonate throughout quite a wide range. Now, will a typical A-string (of around .036” diameter) be able to resonate at say, the low or high E pitches on your guitar? No, its mass is to high to resonate at the pitch of the High E, and to low to resonate at the pitch of the low E string; that is, after all why all the strings on our guitars are not the same size. The same basic principals apply to loudspeakers.
A raw speaker cone will have a frequency at which it naturally wants to resonate, based on the properties of the material it is made of and its dimensions. Everything in life has an Fs! Thump on a metal mic stand, it wants to resonate at a pitch of say 2000Hz, thump on your wall, probably resonates around 400-600Hz. Everything in the Universe has a resonant frequency! Okay, so, back to speakers. The question I often hear is something like: “if the WGS Reaper 55 has a 55Hz cone, why is its Fs listed as 75Hz”. That’s easy! The CONE may resonate at 55Hz all by its self, but the overall balance (tuning) of the speaker results in a Fs (for the completed speaker) of 75Hz. There are other guitar speaker companies out there that simply list the Fs of a speaker with a 55Hz cone as being 55Hz, but that’s not accurate. Oh, and then there is the fact that the Fs of a speaker lowers over time as the suspension loosens up. The Reaper 55, with an out-of-the-box Fs of 75Hz will settle down to about 60-65Hz when fully broken in.
Okay, so now you know the truth, the whole truth, & nuttin but the truth. Trying to get a speaker to produce frequencies much below it’s overall Fs doesn’t work very well. So, what exactly does this equate to in guitar tone? Well, I’m glad you asked. A standard tuned 6-string guitar has a fundamental frequency range from about 90Hz (Low e-string, open) to 1,300Hz (high e-string, 24th fret). Upper harmonics extend to about 4000Hz (this varies greatly). So, given this range, a speaker with a non broken-in Fs of around 80-100Hz works out quite well. But what about drop-tunings and 7-string guitars that are all the rage in certain music forms? Well, if the lowest note your guitar produces is a D, that’s about 75Hz, here is where a speaker with an Fs of 75Hz will really help you out. A low C is about 65Hz, here is where you are in the range of drivers made for Bass guitar with an Fs of 65Hz or below! A good guitar speaker, which needs to be nimble and articulate in order to sound pleasing, will not have an Fs that low. Think about a hi-fi system; why do you have separate woofers and tweeters? Because no one speaker can do a decent job of reproducing the entire sonic spectrum. Take the 15” WGS Bass speaker, for instance, it has an insanely low 32Hz Fs … would it make a good guitar speaker? Not if you want any sparkle and touch sensitivity. But man can it move some serious air!
I’ll just bet that you have noticed that the WGS Reaper is available either with the (standard) 75Hz, or 55Hz cone. Several other speaker manufacturers also offer this option. But, what does it really mean in terms of tone? Let’s talk about that.
First, we need to understand that the natural response of the raw cone is not the same as the final natural response of the completed speaker, which is expressed as the speaker’s Resonant Frequency (abbreviated Fs). Here is the textbook description of a speaker’s Fs:
“Also called F0, resonance frequency measured in hertz (Hz). The frequency at which the combination of the energy stored in the moving mass and suspension compliance is maximum, and results in maximum cone velocity. A more compliant suspension or a larger moving mass will cause a lower resonance frequency, and vice versa. Usually it is less efficient to produce output at frequencies below Fs, and input signals significantly below Fscan cause large excursions, mechanically endangering the driver. Woofers typically have an Fsin the range of 13–60 Hz. Midranges usually have an Fs in the range of 60–500 Hz and tweeters between 500 Hz and 4 kHz. A typical factory tolerance for Fs spec is ±15%.”
Here is a more abbreviated description:
“This is the free-air resonance of a speaker; it's the frequency that the speaker wants to vibrate at. This is a result of the weight of the moving parts (cone, etc) in balance with the stiffness of the speaker's suspension. At a speaker's Fs the speaker will over emphasize (make louder) that frequency and cause crossover points to change due to impedance variances. For accurate sound reproduction these frequency peaks must be controlled (kept flat).”
So, the final Fs of a speaker is: 1) the frequency at which it naturally wants to resonate, and 2) is a result of the balance (tuning) between the speaker’s moving parts and the suspension. Think about those two points for a second. Let’s make this comparison: take the A-string on your guitar; would you say that its Fs is 110Hz? Well, yes and no. When the guitar is TUNED to standard (A-440) then, yes, apx. 110Hz would be the frequency at which that string resonates. However, the string can be tuned to resonate throughout quite a wide range. Now, will a typical A-string (of around .036” diameter) be able to resonate at say, the low or high E pitches on your guitar? No, its mass is to high to resonate at the pitch of the High E, and to low to resonate at the pitch of the low E string; that is, after all why all the strings on our guitars are not the same size. The same basic principals apply to loudspeakers.
A raw speaker cone will have a frequency at which it naturally wants to resonate, based on the properties of the material it is made of and its dimensions. Everything in life has an Fs! Thump on a metal mic stand, it wants to resonate at a pitch of say 2000Hz, thump on your wall, probably resonates around 400-600Hz. Everything in the Universe has a resonant frequency! Okay, so, back to speakers. The question I often hear is something like: “if the WGS Reaper 55 has a 55Hz cone, why is its Fs listed as 75Hz”. That’s easy! The CONE may resonate at 55Hz all by its self, but the overall balance (tuning) of the speaker results in a Fs (for the completed speaker) of 75Hz. There are other guitar speaker companies out there that simply list the Fs of a speaker with a 55Hz cone as being 55Hz, but that’s not accurate. Oh, and then there is the fact that the Fs of a speaker lowers over time as the suspension loosens up. The Reaper 55, with an out-of-the-box Fs of 75Hz will settle down to about 60-65Hz when fully broken in.
Okay, so now you know the truth, the whole truth, & nuttin but the truth. Trying to get a speaker to produce frequencies much below it’s overall Fs doesn’t work very well. So, what exactly does this equate to in guitar tone? Well, I’m glad you asked. A standard tuned 6-string guitar has a fundamental frequency range from about 90Hz (Low e-string, open) to 1,300Hz (high e-string, 24th fret). Upper harmonics extend to about 4000Hz (this varies greatly). So, given this range, a speaker with a non broken-in Fs of around 80-100Hz works out quite well. But what about drop-tunings and 7-string guitars that are all the rage in certain music forms? Well, if the lowest note your guitar produces is a D, that’s about 75Hz, here is where a speaker with an Fs of 75Hz will really help you out. A low C is about 65Hz, here is where you are in the range of drivers made for Bass guitar with an Fs of 65Hz or below! A good guitar speaker, which needs to be nimble and articulate in order to sound pleasing, will not have an Fs that low. Think about a hi-fi system; why do you have separate woofers and tweeters? Because no one speaker can do a decent job of reproducing the entire sonic spectrum. Take the 15” WGS Bass speaker, for instance, it has an insanely low 32Hz Fs … would it make a good guitar speaker? Not if you want any sparkle and touch sensitivity. But man can it move some serious air!
My 2x12 has a Reaper + Reaper 55hz. I've used it pretty regularly over the last, I'm guessing, ten years to play Motörhead, Tool, STP, Alice In Chains, Maiden, Metallica etc.
I like it in the studio, on top of my V30 loaded Recto cab. It makes a sweet 6x12 stack.
The only thing that tears me away from it, lately, is my newer obsession with the Green Beret pushed by a low watt amp(5-18watters)
OP
Well, for me, I use my DSL40C for just about everything....I feel like I would like more defined Lows/Mids....
My 1997 VS265 2X12 still has its original Marshall/Celestion Gold-Backs....
syscokid
Ambassador of War & Peace
That, to me, sounds like either a Celestion 1265 or many clones of it! Clones like the:
WGS ET65
Eminence Tonespotter
Scumback BM-75LD
My ET65 after breaking it in for a couple of years.
Mine, out of the box was tight and congested.
It's why I spend more time in the living room now, than in the studio noodling. It has totally changed for the better in a big way.
OP
So, it's likely a Veteran 30 or the Reaper 55Hz...
syscokid
Ambassador of War & Peace
The Veteran 30 is supposed to be like a Celestion Vintage 30: Heavy on the upper mids.
The G12-65's, ET-65's are different: Mellower highs and not as aggressive on the mids. In a nutshell... sweeter!
Reaper? I'm not sure, but they do sound light years better than the stock speaker of the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe
The G12-65's, ET-65's are different: Mellower highs and not as aggressive on the mids. In a nutshell... sweeter!
Reaper? I'm not sure, but they do sound light years better than the stock speaker of the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe
OP
I'm tossed up right now between the 12" Veteran 30 and the 12" Reaper 55Hz....
gball
Ambassador of Boogie
I assume you are putting it in your DSL combo? The best thing I have ever used in an open-back cabinet is this:
Speaker - 12" Celestion Custom 90 - UK Made - Choose Impedance
They take an ice-age to break in but once they do they have the best low end of any speaker I've used in an open back cab. Warm and smooth but punchy. High end sounds like a less raspy Greenback to me.
Speaker - 12" Celestion Custom 90 - UK Made - Choose Impedance
They take an ice-age to break in but once they do they have the best low end of any speaker I've used in an open back cab. Warm and smooth but punchy. High end sounds like a less raspy Greenback to me.
OP
Nice...thinking about clean, low end response!!!!