Unfortunately Mike Shipley passed away far too soon in 2013, but we are honored to present his final print interview from that year courtesy of our contributor Jake Brown.
"Mutt's whole thing was, ‘Kids these days don't want to hear honky little snare drums. They're all out watching Star Wars and having visual experiences, so let's make records like that. Rather than going the natural route, let's make something larger than life!'"
Famed engineer/mixer Mike Shipley recalls the moment when legendary record producer Robert John "Mutt" Lange first expressed his vision for Def Leppard's 1983 album, Pyromania. To date, one can still shake their head thinking back about how cinematic and epic the record's sound was for the time. Shipley explains how he was the right-hand man to Mutt Lange, and how he helmed many mixes and albums on his own.
Here’s a great interview with engineer / producer Mike Shipley that is in this month’s issue of Tape Op. The interview was conducted several years ago as Shipley passed away in 2013, but his work will continue to inspire for generations. In 2012, he won a Grammy for Best Engineered Album, Non-Classical category for his joint work on Paper Airplane, by Alison Krauss and Union Station. He also worked with bands like the Sex Pistols, Maroon 5, Barenaked Ladies, 5 Seconds to Mars, Nickelback, Green Day, RATT, Cheap Trick and countless others, but he will most likely always be remembered more for working alongside producer Mutt Lange and Def Leppard. Shipley worked with Def Leppard from High n’ Dry to Pyromania to Hysteria to Adrenalize. Here are some excerpts from the interview:
You and Mutt were trying something truly revolutionary, compared to the way rock drums were being recorded at that time.
The previous Def Leppard record, High ‘n’ Dry [1981], was recorded with real drums. On Pyromania [1983] Mutt wanted to be experimental and leave the drums to the very end. He would keep changing the arrangements, so therefore the drum parts would need to keep changing. We had to figure out how to sync that up. It was on the cutting edge, but somehow we managed to put it all together. Take “Photograph,” for example. Like all the other songs on the record, the song’s drums were all samples from the Fairlight [CMI (computer musical instrument) sampler]. There are no real drums. The cymbals are played, but the bass drum, snare, and toms are all machine. We had all kinds of drums in there, and I sampled them into the Fairlight and detuned them. We’d sample them in at half-speed, thinking that we’d get a better sound, because that’s when Fairlight was at 8 bits – you had to get around that part of it. We sampled [Ludwig] Black Beauty snares, other snares, and all kinds of bass drums. We ended up with something that Mutt liked that we could detune a little bit. When we were sampling in the sounds, we used [Neumann] KM 84s and we used [Shure SM]58s. There were so many mics. The toms were primarily Simmons toms back then, which were electronic. We experimented, EQ’d, and mangled the sound up a little bit to come up with the drum sound. It was pretty unnatural, but that was kind of the point.
The Fairlight seems like it basically became like another member of the band. What kind of role did it play as you got near the end of tracking?
We were recording Pyromania on 24-track, and we spent a lot of months on that record. By the time it came to mixing, the tape was peeling off in 2-inch pieces. It became clear from the intensity of working on a record like that, going over and over and over, blocking out backgrounds, changing arrangements, and all that. I’m surprised we ever got it finished, because the tape literally fell to pieces. It was experimental; we were using a Fairlight, trying to sync that whole thing up and work like that, and we hadn’t figured out ‘til the end how we were going to do the drums. So even when “Photograph” was about to be mixed, Mutt decided to change the chorus. Songs would evolve, and he wanted to have control until the last minute of what the feel was going to be. Rather than commit to the drums, and have to re-cut them and re-cut them, he thought this was a better way to do it. I don’t think anyone had done it before, but we decided to give it a shot – scary as it was – and we just went on blind faith. It was more about being able to change the arrangements at the last minute, which was very important to him.
Mutt Lange invented the “layers upon layers” approach to recording walls of guitar and vocal tracks stacked throughout that album. What was that construction process like in the studio?
Because of the nature of the way that band played, and the inversions they used, it was very hard to get the right – what Mutt had in his head as – “commercial distortion.” We had hundreds of amps and cabinets in that studio; from AC/DC amps, to little combos, to big stacks. Everything you could think of. We spent weeks and weeks trying to get a commercial sound for those inversions, rather than the [raw] crunchy, distorted sound. I’m pretty sure we ended up with just a little Marshall combo amp after we’d tried everything. It’s funny, because after a while you get so fatigued that nothing ever sounds good enough. But we had to start recording at a certain point, so we found a good combination that worked, and used condenser mics, [Neumann U] 87s and [Neumann U] 67s, on the amplifiers.
What do you remember that process being like for the guys in Def Leppard?
There were certain points where it got very hard, because Steve Clark [guitar] and those guys were used to going in and just laying it down. But Mutt’s brilliant as a diplomat, which worked as a strength for him at certain points because of the length of time involved. It was hard for Joe [Elliott, vocals] because of how much Mutt would work on the vocals, but they understood he had a vision and that everything was coming out great. It was tough for them, at the same time as being great for them. Mutt was very, very hardcore about the lead vocal. We’d spend the longest time on the vocals; Joe would get frustrated about it at certain points, but he was an excellent sport. He’d have terrible headaches because Mutt was just relentless about it. We used a [Neumann U] 67 pretty much for everything vocally on Pyromania. Mutt always had specific ideas about delays, and we just had to figure out how to create them. We used all kinds of delay lengths on Joe’s lead vocals; they might have been created by a tape machine, because there wasn’t that much “long delay” outboard gear out back then. The reverbs were usually regular EMT 140 plate reverbs, which we had four of at that studio in a plate room. After that record was out, the AMS [RMX-16 digital reverberator] came out. We also used to use a lot of the old, original Lexicon delays; I remember this huge box. The other delays we’d use would be multitrack delays, where we’d make up the delay length by going into different channels in [record on the] multitrack to get different delay amounts. We also used a flanger, and a couple of 2-track tape delays. We didn’t use [outboard] mic preamps; we just used what was in the SSL [console]. When we were recording harmony vocals, in order to keep the distinction away from the lead vocals, the backgrounds were usually Mutt and Rick Savage [bass]. They would do 20 or 40 tracks of one part, then dump down 20 tracks onto one track, then do 20 more tracks and dump them down onto another track to make up a stereo pair. Then they’d add the backgrounds to that part, bounce them down two tracks, and then hand-sync them back into the choruses. We’d EQ them, bounce them onto a 2-track machine, and then I’d have to get the timing right, hit the play button, keep going until we got the timing right, and slide them in.
When I listened to a new Def Leppard album back in the ‘80s, it always felt like listening to a futuristic experience. What was Mutt paying most attention to in mixing to achieve that sound?
Whenever we were mixing, regardless of the band or style of genre, we went for what seemed to be the right thing to do. We’d listen to the song and say, “Okay, this is what it needs to be like,” and go for that. It’s always been a gut thing, as well as a technical thing. Not really worrying about any rules or regulations about EQ, what backgrounds should sound like, or what drums should sound like. It’s about carving out the space so things could be intentionally soft but still very audible, because it’s still about depth of field as well as everything being in your face. We’d just need to carve out the right space for the instrument. That’s something Mutt taught me how to do, and I’d end up doing it by second nature. It was one of those things that was experimental, but he’d find a place for it. He’d have a sound in his head, and make it work. We were working 18 hour days, seven days a week, for that whole record. This kind of commitment was necessary, because Mutt wanted big, larger than life on everything. They were all very lengthy records to mix. A lot of time was taken, more than what most people would think, especially later on, in terms of records like Hysteria. We spent a long time, and if it wasn’t working we’d just start again. Given those machine sounds, it was really quite difficult – we were so lost in the process. We had an end vision in sight, and I would work, and work, and work. Mutt wanted to make things as 3-dimensional as possible, sonically.
"Mutt's whole thing was, ‘Kids these days don't want to hear honky little snare drums. They're all out watching Star Wars and having visual experiences, so let's make records like that. Rather than going the natural route, let's make something larger than life!'"
Famed engineer/mixer Mike Shipley recalls the moment when legendary record producer Robert John "Mutt" Lange first expressed his vision for Def Leppard's 1983 album, Pyromania. To date, one can still shake their head thinking back about how cinematic and epic the record's sound was for the time. Shipley explains how he was the right-hand man to Mutt Lange, and how he helmed many mixes and albums on his own.
Here’s a great interview with engineer / producer Mike Shipley that is in this month’s issue of Tape Op. The interview was conducted several years ago as Shipley passed away in 2013, but his work will continue to inspire for generations. In 2012, he won a Grammy for Best Engineered Album, Non-Classical category for his joint work on Paper Airplane, by Alison Krauss and Union Station. He also worked with bands like the Sex Pistols, Maroon 5, Barenaked Ladies, 5 Seconds to Mars, Nickelback, Green Day, RATT, Cheap Trick and countless others, but he will most likely always be remembered more for working alongside producer Mutt Lange and Def Leppard. Shipley worked with Def Leppard from High n’ Dry to Pyromania to Hysteria to Adrenalize. Here are some excerpts from the interview:
You and Mutt were trying something truly revolutionary, compared to the way rock drums were being recorded at that time.
The previous Def Leppard record, High ‘n’ Dry [1981], was recorded with real drums. On Pyromania [1983] Mutt wanted to be experimental and leave the drums to the very end. He would keep changing the arrangements, so therefore the drum parts would need to keep changing. We had to figure out how to sync that up. It was on the cutting edge, but somehow we managed to put it all together. Take “Photograph,” for example. Like all the other songs on the record, the song’s drums were all samples from the Fairlight [CMI (computer musical instrument) sampler]. There are no real drums. The cymbals are played, but the bass drum, snare, and toms are all machine. We had all kinds of drums in there, and I sampled them into the Fairlight and detuned them. We’d sample them in at half-speed, thinking that we’d get a better sound, because that’s when Fairlight was at 8 bits – you had to get around that part of it. We sampled [Ludwig] Black Beauty snares, other snares, and all kinds of bass drums. We ended up with something that Mutt liked that we could detune a little bit. When we were sampling in the sounds, we used [Neumann] KM 84s and we used [Shure SM]58s. There were so many mics. The toms were primarily Simmons toms back then, which were electronic. We experimented, EQ’d, and mangled the sound up a little bit to come up with the drum sound. It was pretty unnatural, but that was kind of the point.
The Fairlight seems like it basically became like another member of the band. What kind of role did it play as you got near the end of tracking?
We were recording Pyromania on 24-track, and we spent a lot of months on that record. By the time it came to mixing, the tape was peeling off in 2-inch pieces. It became clear from the intensity of working on a record like that, going over and over and over, blocking out backgrounds, changing arrangements, and all that. I’m surprised we ever got it finished, because the tape literally fell to pieces. It was experimental; we were using a Fairlight, trying to sync that whole thing up and work like that, and we hadn’t figured out ‘til the end how we were going to do the drums. So even when “Photograph” was about to be mixed, Mutt decided to change the chorus. Songs would evolve, and he wanted to have control until the last minute of what the feel was going to be. Rather than commit to the drums, and have to re-cut them and re-cut them, he thought this was a better way to do it. I don’t think anyone had done it before, but we decided to give it a shot – scary as it was – and we just went on blind faith. It was more about being able to change the arrangements at the last minute, which was very important to him.
Mutt Lange invented the “layers upon layers” approach to recording walls of guitar and vocal tracks stacked throughout that album. What was that construction process like in the studio?
Because of the nature of the way that band played, and the inversions they used, it was very hard to get the right – what Mutt had in his head as – “commercial distortion.” We had hundreds of amps and cabinets in that studio; from AC/DC amps, to little combos, to big stacks. Everything you could think of. We spent weeks and weeks trying to get a commercial sound for those inversions, rather than the [raw] crunchy, distorted sound. I’m pretty sure we ended up with just a little Marshall combo amp after we’d tried everything. It’s funny, because after a while you get so fatigued that nothing ever sounds good enough. But we had to start recording at a certain point, so we found a good combination that worked, and used condenser mics, [Neumann U] 87s and [Neumann U] 67s, on the amplifiers.
What do you remember that process being like for the guys in Def Leppard?
There were certain points where it got very hard, because Steve Clark [guitar] and those guys were used to going in and just laying it down. But Mutt’s brilliant as a diplomat, which worked as a strength for him at certain points because of the length of time involved. It was hard for Joe [Elliott, vocals] because of how much Mutt would work on the vocals, but they understood he had a vision and that everything was coming out great. It was tough for them, at the same time as being great for them. Mutt was very, very hardcore about the lead vocal. We’d spend the longest time on the vocals; Joe would get frustrated about it at certain points, but he was an excellent sport. He’d have terrible headaches because Mutt was just relentless about it. We used a [Neumann U] 67 pretty much for everything vocally on Pyromania. Mutt always had specific ideas about delays, and we just had to figure out how to create them. We used all kinds of delay lengths on Joe’s lead vocals; they might have been created by a tape machine, because there wasn’t that much “long delay” outboard gear out back then. The reverbs were usually regular EMT 140 plate reverbs, which we had four of at that studio in a plate room. After that record was out, the AMS [RMX-16 digital reverberator] came out. We also used to use a lot of the old, original Lexicon delays; I remember this huge box. The other delays we’d use would be multitrack delays, where we’d make up the delay length by going into different channels in [record on the] multitrack to get different delay amounts. We also used a flanger, and a couple of 2-track tape delays. We didn’t use [outboard] mic preamps; we just used what was in the SSL [console]. When we were recording harmony vocals, in order to keep the distinction away from the lead vocals, the backgrounds were usually Mutt and Rick Savage [bass]. They would do 20 or 40 tracks of one part, then dump down 20 tracks onto one track, then do 20 more tracks and dump them down onto another track to make up a stereo pair. Then they’d add the backgrounds to that part, bounce them down two tracks, and then hand-sync them back into the choruses. We’d EQ them, bounce them onto a 2-track machine, and then I’d have to get the timing right, hit the play button, keep going until we got the timing right, and slide them in.
When I listened to a new Def Leppard album back in the ‘80s, it always felt like listening to a futuristic experience. What was Mutt paying most attention to in mixing to achieve that sound?
Whenever we were mixing, regardless of the band or style of genre, we went for what seemed to be the right thing to do. We’d listen to the song and say, “Okay, this is what it needs to be like,” and go for that. It’s always been a gut thing, as well as a technical thing. Not really worrying about any rules or regulations about EQ, what backgrounds should sound like, or what drums should sound like. It’s about carving out the space so things could be intentionally soft but still very audible, because it’s still about depth of field as well as everything being in your face. We’d just need to carve out the right space for the instrument. That’s something Mutt taught me how to do, and I’d end up doing it by second nature. It was one of those things that was experimental, but he’d find a place for it. He’d have a sound in his head, and make it work. We were working 18 hour days, seven days a week, for that whole record. This kind of commitment was necessary, because Mutt wanted big, larger than life on everything. They were all very lengthy records to mix. A lot of time was taken, more than what most people would think, especially later on, in terms of records like Hysteria. We spent a long time, and if it wasn’t working we’d just start again. Given those machine sounds, it was really quite difficult – we were so lost in the process. We had an end vision in sight, and I would work, and work, and work. Mutt wanted to make things as 3-dimensional as possible, sonically.
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