Electric

You know what boys and girls. With the exceptions of a couple tangents, this has been quite an interesting conversation. Excellent points have been made on both sides of the equation. Points that have been presented and backed up with research…. I applaud all of you.

I don’t own a crystal ball so I have no idea the timeline. But whether pushed by “The Man,” the manufactures or the “save the planet pun-gents,” internal combustion is on the way out and some form of alternate fuel is on the way in. That ball has started rolling downhill and not even Indiana Jones can dodge this one.
 
iblive said:
You know what boys and girls. With the exceptions of a couple tangents, this has been quite an interesting conversation. Excellent points have been made on both sides of the equation. Points that have been presented and backed up with research…. I applaud all of you.

I don’t own a crystal ball so I have no idea the timeline. But whether pushed by “The Man,” the manufactures or the “save the planet pun-gents,” internal combustion is on the way out and some form of alternate fuel is on the way in. That ball has started rolling downhill and not even Indiana Jones can dodge this one.
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Yes you can dodge it Rick, just like i can and will, we wont have to worry about it due to our age..Lol, don't throw in your fuel cans yet ..:D(y)
 
Session 5 said:
Check it out

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Good video. The issues with mining lithium and cobalt are the most concerning things to me.

I would really, really like to see a new battery developed that presents less of an environmental and human toll. Of course, hydrogen fuel cells would bypass a lot of these issues.

Aaaaand, just to let you know I do think about multiple opinions on this topic, here's another video by the same guy I posted earlier explaining why improving combustion engines still makes sense and why it makes better sense for some people to get a combustion car.

I like this guy's approach. He doesn't present the topic in his channel as if everyone needs to buy electric. He does try to take a logical, informed approach and may even conclude that buying an EV isn't really the best option for everyone.

 
And just when we were talking about newer battery tech, here's an article describing how NASA has improved a solid-state battery design that is lighter and has more energy than lithium batteries. The application described in the article deals with electric aircraft, but such tech could find its way into automobiles, too.

MSN

www.msn.com
 
California's mandate only affects the sale of brand new vehicles, but the language of the statute does not prohibit the sales or importation of gasoline vehicles into the state, it only prevents the purchase of brand new vehicles in California that are not EV.

You can still purchase and sell used cars and no doubt this will create a "prohibition era-esque" demand for used vehicles.

Additionally, there is no importation ban on new vehicles. You can buy a new gasoline powered car in Arizona and import and register it in California under the language of the current version of the statute.

In another example of California's historical fiscal nearsightedness, Newsom announced (in a January 22, 2022 press release you can read on the ca.gov website) he plans to channel $10 billion of taxpayer funded revenue to help low income familes purchase electric cars and to make changes to the state's charging infrastructure.

What's interesting is the state appears to be poised to divert funds earmarked to combat homelessness and other poverty assistance programs to a accomplish this EV goal, which is always followed by a ballot initiative to generate more revenue.

Now, we should consider what these changes really mean.

In the past year here in SoCal, we've seen free EV charging at local malls go from free to being a "pay per Kw" scenario.

What about the lost gas tax revenues?

That gap between the national average of $3.89/gallon and California's average of $6.39 means we are now paying $2.50 per gallon more here in California.

For every gallon of gas in California, we pay:

54 cents in state excise tax: among the highest in the nation
18.4 cents in federal excise tax
23 cents for California's cap-and-trade program to lower greenhouse gas emissions
18 cents for the state's low-carbon fuel programs
2 cents for underground gas storage fees
An average of 3.7% in state and local taxes.

Naturally, you don't see a lot of political leaders getting furious about high gas prices, in the way you would kind of expect them to, because it is actually a great bailout for a lot of city governments.

But rest assured, the EV taxes are coming.

Texas Senate Bill 1728—would raise fees on electric vehicle (EV) owners as a way to make up for the gas tax they're not paying.

The legislation would require an annual EV fee of between $190 and $240, an additional fee of over $150 for anyone who drives their EV more than 9000 miles a year, and an annual surcharge of $10 to fund a charging infrastructure advisory council.

I believe that you should be able to drive whatever you choose, in much the same way i think you should be able to practice the religion of your choice, even if others see no apparent sense in your choice....
 
smitty_p said:
And just when we were talking about newer battery tech, here's an article describing how NASA has improved a solid-state battery design that is lighter and has more energy than lithium batteries. The application described in the article deals with electric aircraft, but such tech could find its way into automobiles, too.

MSN

www.msn.com
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Pretty much a thought I presented earlier in this conversation. It took 60ish years for man to go from first flight to walking on the moon. Also took 60ish years to advance from computers that took up entire rooms and buildings to this iPhone 13 I’m typing this on….. which most likely outperforms that whole room computer many times over.

The first mass produced hybrid (Prius) hit the market in 1997. First mass produced all electric (Tesla) was 2009.

We’re only a bit over 20 years into this technology. By the time we’re 60 years out, my oldest grandkids will be showing their grandkids photos of the Corvette grandpa drove around and it’ll be like us looking at Model T’s.

Gas/diesel powered vehicles aren’t going away anytime soon. Nor are the stations that sell the fuel. In spite of what we read and hear, moving from fossil fuel to alternate “fuel” isn’t going to happen overnight. It’s many years off. And by that point, the tech we are looking at today will be ancient history. And folk like me and Norm and others in this group won’t be here to see it.
 
iblive said:
Gas/diesel powered vehicles aren’t going away anytime soon. Nor are the stations that sell the fuel. In spite of what we read and hear, moving from fossil fuel to alternate “fuel” isn’t going to happen overnight. It’s many years off. And by that point, the tech we are looking at today will be ancient history. And folk like me and Norm and others in this group won’t be here to see it.
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Having worked for Tesla, i am in no way enamored with EV's.

I enjoy my Sunday drives and enjoy listening to a V8 echoing through the canyons in and arround Death Valley.

I also enjoy riding the XR500R out into remote regions - so remote - that the trip requires carrying extra fuel.

As juvenile as this sounds, I'm going to share it with you. I was out in the open desert near Atolia, California two years ago and, at that time, BLM pice were actively ticketing OHV's. My 1982 XR500R has a very early, prototype Super Trapp, which is fairly loud.

East of Cuddeback Lake, i saw a BLM patrol (with OHV's) off to the south about a mile or so. I turned NE and headed for Death Valley. I noticed the BLM guys were following in their OHV and shortly thereafter, one of their helicopters began circling as well.

I decided to test their resolve.

While still underway, i began refueling the XR500R from jugs carried in a forward-facing backpack (with additional fuel lashed across the forks) and headed into an incredibly remote region of the desert, carefully avoiding entering Death Valley National Park.

The canyons out in this area are deep and jagged. 2 way radios are non-functional here and sattleite phones work only when a sattleite is passing directly overhead.

The BLM guys broke off once i got to the canyons. I took on fuel later at Panamint Springs and spent the night in the abandoned Panamint Hilton, before riding back home the next morning.

Its likely that i will continue to enjoy these pastimes, even if they are not en vogue.
 
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Inspector #20 said:
Having worked for Tesla, i am in no way enamored with EV's.

I enjoy my Sunday drives and enjoy listening to a V8 echoing through the canyons in and arround Death Valley.

I also enjoy riding the XR500R out into remote regions - so remote - that the trip requires carrying extra fuel.

Its likely that i will continue to enjoy these pastimes, even if they are not en vogue.
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And no one will be taking that away from you or me and the rest of us anytime soon. Most likely, not in our lifetime for a bunch of us.

We’re all looking at this in the present. I can’t agree or disagree with the quality you’ve seen in the Tesla’s. I have no personal experience. Betting once the big hitters all get on board with their EV’s….. with their dealer networks…. Elon will have problems keeping up. Frankly. I don’t see Tesla as an entity in the future.

Much of what we’re discussing is in the same vein our great grandparents were saying when Henry Ford dropped the first mass produced machine on the public. “You can’t make me ride around in that noisy smelly contraptions…. It’ll never last.” Well. I’d say that smelly noisy machine has had a pretty good run. But all things evolve. This is no exception. Regardless what/who is pushing this forward….. it is happening.
 
The cost of driving an Ev will cost us taxpayers much much more as time goes on, this will affect consumers to a point the cost will be too much for the average person to be able to drive one.

Its a scheme along with climate change that will break the middle class . Not saying there are some things we can do to help our planet like clean coal which is cheap to produce . We know they have the tech to produce cleaner burning combustion engines. But the rich dont want to use these technologies, they are on the band wagon with climate change which in turn is why they now got on the EV wagon.

The rich are getting richer my friends off your back, the problem is many people are buying into their scheme. Your kids and Grandkids many of them will not make the middleclass in years to come, many can not make it now. By giving in to this, their future is dwindling, and so is ours bit by bit.

Yes you say the technology will become cheaper in time, yes it will , but by that time it will be too late. It will take years, they are changing the whole structure of our system.

The poor countries will still be using fossil fuels for heating, vehicles, cooking. They will not be able to conform to these new technoligies, its way too costly Regardless of how much money is pumped into climate change , it will make very little difference to our society or our World except for one thing it will make more people join the ranks of poverty..






 
iblive said:
Regardless what/who is pushing this forward….. it is happening.
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That’s the way I look at it. I mean, I don’t hate combustion cars. I still think very fondly of my ‘71 Cutlass from years back with its tough-as-nails Oldsmobile Rocket 350 V8 engine. I really liked that car. I rebuilt the automatic TH350 tranny in that car at one point and I even enjoyed that. It was a great car.

But, things march on. I can fight the change or use the change as best fits my situation.
 
smitty_p said:
That’s the way I look at it. I mean, I don’t hate combustion cars. I still think very fondly of my ‘71 Cutlass from years back with its tough-as-nails Oldsmobile Rocket 350 V8 engine. I really liked that car. I rebuilt the automatic TH350 tranny in that car at one point and I even enjoyed that. It was a great car.

But, things march on. I can fight the change or use the change as best fits my situation.
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Exactly. I for one basically hate change…… more or less. But everything evolves. Humans. Our pets. Even the appliances in the kitchen today talk to our smart phones. To me it’s ludicrous to think our transportation will stay the way it’s always been. At some point, we’re going to max out the capabilities of the internal combustion engine. Not saying we are there yet. But I’d suggest we’re getting close.
 
iblive said:
Pretty much a thought I presented earlier in this conversation. It took 60ish years for man to go from first flight to walking on the moon. Also took 60ish years to advance from computers that took up entire rooms and buildings to this iPhone 13 I’m typing this on….. which most likely outperforms that whole room computer many times over.
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That 60-ish year timeframe is a pretty astute observation.

The electric lightbulb was invented in 1854. By 1914 the path forward was pretty much set and more and more homes were being outfitted with electricity. The telephone was invented in 1876. By 1936 the die was cast and the telephone was quickly on its way to becoming a ubiquitous and staple feature of the American household.

So, yeah, the EV growing pains are pretty much par for the course, if you think of it in that context.

I personally don’t much care what car individuals choose to buy, but I think the trajectory is becoming fairly apparent.
 
The biggest problem is:
Moving the pollution from the car tailpipe to the electric power plant...
does not create an emission free vehicle.

Nearly all commercial power is produced from Fossil Fuels.

63% of the power is lost in the transmission wires between the power plant and the point of usage.
(source: California Energy Commission)

Therefore: (considering facts above that are usually ignored)
Gasoline automobiles are still far more efficient than electric.
Propane automobiles are also more efficient than electric.
Sorry.

If all electricity was created from solar, wind, hydroelectric, geothermal, geomagnetic....
then it would be different.
But this is not the case today, or in the foreseeable future.
 
smitty_p said:
I personally don’t much care what car individuals choose to buy...........
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Nor do I. And frankly we aren't in the market for a new car of any type. Still paying one off. Now.... if our circumstances change.... say we sell our house in Northern Illinois and move to warmer climates. An EV may be the perfect choice for a car. Any travel would most likely be by airplane or bus/train. The rest of the time we'd be making short runs..... store..... restaurant..... beach.... etc. Range would be of no consequence. My bride is already in that place. Not sure I am yet. ;)
 
Amp Mad Scientist said:
The biggest problem is:
Moving the pollution from the car tailpipe to the electric power plant...
does not create an emission free vehicle.

Nearly all commercial power is produced from Fossil Fuels.

63% of the power is lost in the transmission wires between the power plant and the point of usage.
(source: California Energy Commission)

Therefore: (considering facts above that are usually ignored)
Gasoline automobiles are still far more efficient than electric.
Propane automobiles are also more efficient than electric.
Sorry.

If all electricity was created from solar, wind, hydroelectric, geothermal, geomagnetic....
then it would be different.
But this is not the case today, or in the foreseeable future.
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I don't disagree. It's why I say we still have more questions than answers. We need those questions answered!
 
iblive said:
I don't disagree. It's why I say we still have more questions than answers. We need those questions answered!
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We already have the answer....
If we all drive electric cars
we use more fossil fuel than we ever did before, to generate the electricity.

Generating power to run cars is much less efficient than putting the fuel INTO the car.

Until all fossil fuel electric power is replaced, we just dig the hole deeper and deeper.

Electric cars don't solve any problem.
(it may seem so but the facts contradict the claim)
 
I feel this conversation has pretty much run it’s course when one can actually agree with someone’s statement…. And still be told he’s wrong. We’re basing our premise on today. We have no idea what tomorrow is going to look like…. And when I say tomorrow, I mean 5-10 years from now. It may not even be electric we’re talking about. We just don’t know.
 
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