Help with proper digital tone

eSGEe

eSGEe

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I think @Clockworkmike and others have mentioned issues with getting good tone from digital-- (I mentioned one "fix" which is dont set the "knobs" of an amp sim to the same setting as a "real" amp) --- here is another (more intelligent) tutorial on getting more proper harmonic rich tone ....... from an Amp Sim software ....
 
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I would have to say Ive seen the Rhett Shull video ...honestly BLEW my mind and -- (yes it doesnt take much) is why I say DONT SET UP DIGITAL LIKE YOU SET UP "REAL" --or analog or tube or Romano cheese or WTF ever your into ....
I would have NEVER thought to put the compressor "pedal" .....after the amp (yes I know others probably do this all the time but was an EYE --and ear--opener ) for me!!
in the digital world all of the "guidlines" are .......OFF THE TABLE!!!
the cats........................ outta the bag!
 
I think if you have the proper modeling equipment or at the very least, some excellent cab simulation software and a proper digital preamp, you CAN create a great sound as there are a ton of people doing it right now obviously on Youtube.

My biggest question is how does it stack up in a live setting? Obviously something like a Kemper or AxeFx could theoretically do it but outside of something along those lines, I raise my doubts.

Plus, who wants to see a Macbook or Chromebook as a backline on stage?
 
There is another point to make, which is similar to the above. That is, don't worry about the amp/cab simulation. per se, as much as the sound you're trying to achieve. For example, a person may want to use a JCM-900 sim, but depending on the nature of the model in the processor, it may not sound exactly like you expect a JCM-900 to sound. You may actually have to experiment a little, even trying other amp or cabinet models, to find the sound you want.
 
Clockworkmike said:
I think if you have the proper modeling equipment or at the very least, some excellent cab simulation software and a proper digital preamp, you CAN create a great sound as there are a ton of people doing it right now obviously on Youtube.

My biggest question is how does it stack up in a live setting? Obviously something like a Kemper or AxeFx could theoretically do it but outside of something along those lines, I raise my doubts.

Plus, who wants to see a Macbook or Chromebook as a backline on stage?
Click to expand...

Products like Kemper or Axe Fx work great in a live setting, but you may have to get used to a different workflow. You have to get used to creating patches and determining the best way to set things up for that particular unit to allow for live transitions between patches or activating/deactivating effects. I've used processors in a live setting. I do prefer the workflow of an amp and pedal board, but often a processor can be fantastic for a varied setlist.

As for the backline..there isn't one! Well, there can be, but generally you'll run straight to the mix and get a foldback on a stage wedge or in-ear monitors. Sometimes, you'll see an amplifier as a "backline" which is fed by the processor, but normally this is just for some stage volume.

In the case of someone using a laptop, I could see that being set up off stage and triggered by midi. You likely wouldn't even see the laptop. It's a different paradigm because there aren't any amplifiers to be seen.
 
OK< I will admit I am not going down this rabbit hole, especially because in a million years I could never understand any of this.

BUT, I do have to ask since I read JCM 900, what effect on the outcome of the model stuff that makes sound, do the speaker choices make?
Ohms wise, Config wise, maker and model of speakers etc etc.

I mean are we talking sweet air moving, chest pounding, butt cheek tightening balls to the walls bombast, or are we talking how things sound recorded for playback when one uses these modeler thingys to make audio recordings of songs?

I hope you guys understand what I am trying to say, cuz I sure feel awkward in how I worded that.
 
chilipeppermaniac said:
or are we talking how things sound recorded for playback when one uses these modeler thingys to make audio recordings of songs?
Click to expand...
I can answer this part in the affirmative. This also translates into the room, when playing through a monitoring system, or PA....The cab sim stuff shapes the tone like different cab's would. If one uses their ears(instead of a screen display), one can find many different flavors to play with/through.
 
lol well ask an audience participant at a Nita Straus --- Metallica-- Steve Vai concert if they FELT that chest pounding feeling Chili ......
Clockworkmike said:
My biggest question is how does it stack up in a live setting? Obviously something like a Kemper or AxeFx could theoretically do it but outside of something along those lines, I raise my doubts.

Plus, who wants to see a Macbook or Chromebook as a backline on stage?
Click to expand...
the pedals (set up by the macbook or chromebook ) STack up rather good playing Rams stadium live ................. but hey shes only a girl...........whats she know??

Nita runs a pedal straight to house...

Metallica and many others use axefx (and other brands) live .... sorry Mike no offense but it "stacks up" -- stacks up to LOADS of cash they save not lugging giant amps around ....... ;)
a few other professional stadium level touring musicians using fractal
  • John Mayer. John Mayer uses the Axe-Fx III both live and in the studio, including some standout moments on his latest album Sob Rock. ...
  • The Edge. ...
  • Steve Vai. ...
  • John Petrucci. ...
  • Misha Mansoor. ...
  • Dweezil Zappa. ...
  • Alex Lifeson. ...
  • Neal Schon.
I can find other proof of other systems being used. but the point is the "its no good live" argument does not hold water because it is and it has been for many tours and many shows....and the most important part...........those in the audience didnt know....or care......

I am beyond even arguing the "merits" of "IF" its good enough ....... because it is --- it has been its touring -- its gigging -- its recording music we all know we all love and we have all heard and enjoyed.
I recall Smitty went to the Trans Siberian Railroad concert........ I do not recall any complaints of the tonal quality or non "real" feeling of the event" ...... and they use Fractal ....
 
chilipeppermaniac said:
OK< I will admit I am not going down this rabbit hole, especially because in a million years I could never understand any of this.

BUT, I do have to ask since I read JCM 900, what effect on the outcome of the model stuff that makes sound, do the speaker choices make?
Ohms wise, Config wise, maker and model of speakers etc etc.

I mean are we talking sweet air moving, chest pounding, butt cheek tightening balls to the walls bombast, or are we talking how things sound recorded for playback when one uses these modeler thingys to make audio recordings of songs?

I hope you guys understand what I am trying to say, cuz I sure feel awkward in how I worded that.
Click to expand...

Great question. Most of the better processors/modellers will have a range of speaker cabinet and microphone choices. In addition to selecting the amplifier sim, you'll select a cabinet model (today that will usually be an impulse response, or "IR") that you want to use with the amp sim. You can even select the microphone model you want to use and how the microphone will be positioned. All this is done when setting up a patch.

So, the sound sent to the house will be a virtual representation of an amp, a cabinet, and a mic. This simulates what you'd do with the real hardware.

To listen to your patch, it's best to use an FRFR (full-range, flat-response) amplifier and speaker.
 
eSGEe said:
I recall Smitty went to the Trans Siberian Railroad concert........ I do not recall any complaints of the tonal quality or non "real" feeling of the event" ...... and they use Fractal ....
Click to expand...

Yup. They sound fantastic. But, you're part right. Joel Hoekstra uses an Axe Fx. I'm pretty certain he uses an Axe Fx III, by now. But, the other guitarist, Chris Caffery, uses an old DigiTech GSP1101. This is older than the Fractal! And, yes, Chris sounded great, too!
 
smitty_p said:
Great question. Most of the better processors/modellers will have a range of speaker cabinet and microphone choices. In addition to selecting the amplifier sim, you'll select a cabinet model (today that will usually be an impulse response, or "IR") that you want to use with the amp sim. You can even select the microphone model you want to use and how the microphone will be positioned. All this is done when setting up a patch.

So, the sound sent to the house will be a virtual representation of an amp, a cabinet, and a mic. This simulates what you'd do with the real hardware.

To listen to your patch, it's best to use an FRFR (full-range, flat-response) amplifier and speaker.
Click to expand...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO smitty say it aint so. They are gonna fake the speakers too?
 
eSGEe said:
Metallica and many others use axefx (and other brands) live .... sorry Mike no offense but it "stacks up" -- stacks up to LOADS of cash they save not lugging giant amps around ....... ;)
a few other professional stadium level touring musicians using fractal
  • John Mayer. John Mayer uses the Axe-Fx III both live and in the studio, including some standout moments on his latest album Sob Rock. ...
  • The Edge. ...
  • Steve Vai. ...
  • John Petrucci. ...
  • Misha Mansoor. ...
  • Dweezil Zappa. ...
  • Alex Lifeson. ...
  • Neal Schon.
Click to expand...

Interesting cast of characters. Here's another....John McFee of the Doobie Brothers uses a Line6 Helix. Not only does he use a Helix, but he also uses the Line6 Variax guitar to interface with it.

The horror!
 
Smitty, explain to me, how will a concert goer wind up in the first 10 rows of the next iteration of Motorhead and get that same 2 hour blast of moving air paralyzed feeling in one's body, if there are no walls of Marshall 1960 speakers to blast the body and ears?
 
I said I am not going to go down the rabbit hole but if I can ever unwarp my brain, I will have to warp it first with trying to understand the science behind this music that is now processed cheese food as I said before.

I understand there are things called Kempers, But am I not mistaken, that a Kemper needs speakers? Even if it goes into a computer and is then processed out through wires or waves in the air,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it still needs some kind of speaker to be heard, does it not?
 
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