Quietest Humbucker:

[smitty_p]

@Relic

Have you ever posted your ES-335? I don't recall ever seeing it.

Go over to this thread and post up some pics:

Post up your hollow and semi-hollow love

 

[Relic]

@Relic

Have you ever posted your ES-335? I don't recall ever seeing it.

Go over to this thread and post up some pics:

Post up your hollow and semi-hollow love

It is a 335-S Professional. A solid body 335 shape with 2 vintage Dirty Fingers pups! Like this!



My 335-S "Professional" (gotta get that 'professional' in there right LOL) is currently being refretted by my luthier buddy in Texas. Next thing I know it turned into a major project & now it's getting new Rosewood Fretboard & God knows what else that maniac will end up doing to it before it gets back to me! I actually miss that guitar. I made one live recording with it & it sounded soo different & good in many ways. Like nice rounded sparkly 'n lively highs, great note definition, 3 real decent & actually usable pup selection & the ability to hit that tube preamp section & breath fire!

The only thing I didn't miss was that crappy fretjob! I would repeatedly get the high E caught under the fret ends due to an amateur refret that had already been done. OH I got some serious money back after buying that guitar brother!

 

[smitty_p]

To be honest, my plan is to get down to just one guitar in the very near future....

One electric would not do for me. But, although I do hear a difference between all my guitars, I could get by with just two...my Stratocaster and just about any of my other humbucker guitars.

If I had to pick just one humbucker guitar, I'd probably lean toward my Washburn HB-30. That's right...even over my SGs or my Les Paul. The Seymour Duncan 59s I put in that guitar work for just about any humbucker tonality I need. Once I Bigsby-fy it, it will be even more versatile.

My Les Paul has the 498T/490R combination. I don't dislike them, but they can be harder to get "into the pocket." They have an impressive gain, though.

My SG Original 2 with 57 Classics is great. I do like the 57 Classics. They work well for most of what I do. Some people describe them as muddy. I have exactly the opposite experience. I think they are bright and actually airy in my rig. I usually have to keep my tone controls at around 6 with them. I will say, they aren't as crunchy as some other pickups I have. If I use both pickups, back off the volume controls and tweak the tone controls, and run on the clean channel of my amp, I can approximate an acoustic guitar when strumming, especially if I add a touch of reverb or subtle delay.

But, getting back to the SD '59s, I like the Seymour Duncan '59s so much, I may put them into my Jackson. The '59s drive my amp harder than their DC resistance would lead you to believe. (One reason I cringe when people try to use the DC resistance to determine pickup output).

The '59s have a little "sumthin' sumthin' " going on. My wife describes them as having a "singing" sound on leads. I like that description.

 

[Inspector #20]

Well if you need me to buy one of yours & 'hold on to it for a while' whilst you try & settle in on having less guitars around,.. just lemme knows,.. yo's. lol

I just might!!

I'm seriously contemplating the all wood, Mahogany hardtail Strat with 24-3/4" scale neck....I keep coming back to this and I think it's probably the answer I have been looking for all these years...

 

[Inspector #20]

The '59s drive my amp harder than their DC resistance would lead you to believe. (One reason I cringe when people try to use the DC resistance to determine pickup output).
.

I too have noticed my EMG's drive the amp really hard....but it lacks a certain "character" that the low impedance (7.9k/7.8k) PAF clones give me....however, I can see where the sub-8k PAF's can be a little limiting in the gain area at times.

I think 9-10k on a Nickel Covered Alinco II PAF is about right in the bridge, with a 220/270k treble cut, followed by a 10k stacked single coil (hum cancelling) in the middle with a 8k (both flat pole profile to reduce magnetic pull) in the neck, with bridge and middle tone controls (500k bridge / 250k middle) and the neck wired wide-open through a 270k resistor for high frequency cut. I have also experimented with a noticed a big difference in using mini ferrite beads on the "hot" from input jack to switch and shielding the jack "ground" wires.

That's likely the setup my custom Stratoblaster will end up with...

 

[Inspector #20]

I chose mahogany for it's weight, but I plan on a dark/light stain to give it a more rosewood look, something like this:



Large headstock, top rout, angled jack, 50's wide hardtail bridge, 24-3/4" scale with "clubby" neck profile, based on measurements taken from my 2016 Gibson SG...

 

[Relic]

Woah....! The thread just went there! This would actually be a great thread topic "If you could have only 1 guitar, what would it be & Why?" LOL OK, even make it 1 electric guitar & we got a massive group participation chime in! lol

But for now, I got some questions! and comments. lol

I'm seriously contemplating the all wood, Mahogany hardtail Strat with 24-3/4" scale neck....I keep coming back to this and I think it's probably the answer I have been looking for all these years...

OK Bobert (thats what I affectionately call my good buddy so I hope ya don't mind me playin around) when you say 'hard-tail Strat' I take that as meaning 'fixed bridge' & no tremolo, not necessarily a 'fixed neck' instead of a bolt on, right.?. You also mention this Strat having typical 24-3/4 Gibson scale and seldom used Mohagony.
So obviously you are talking about a custom job made personally for you.

My question would have to be why 'Strat' when you want to change so much of it? If going custom build, why not change that bolt on & go fixed neck!? Why not put some headstock angle on there in lieu of the straight Strat headstock?

Interesting enough to mention, Fender did make Mahogany Strats here & there although they would Not meet your requirements like this American Deluxe Mahogany model...



Look at that rounded heal joint Robert!!! That is a nice feature to duplicate if you do go with a bolt-on neck.

Oh, & don't leave out that 22nd fret in your design either! You will end up missing it! lol

 

[Inspector #20]

Woah....! The thread just went there! This would actually be a great thread topic "If you could have only 1 guitar, what would it be & Why?" LOL OK, even make it 1 electric guitar & we got a massive group participation chime in! lol

But for now, I got some questions! and comments. lol



OK Bobert (thats what I affectionately call my good buddy so I hope ya don't mind me playin around) when you say 'hard-tail Strat' I take that as meaning 'fixed bridge' & no tremolo, not necessarily a 'fixed neck' instead of a bolt on, right.?. You also mention this Strat having typical 24-3/4 Gibson scale and seldom used Mohagony.
So obviously you are talking about a custom job made personally for you.

My question would have to be why 'Strat' when you want to change so much of it? If going custom build, why not change that bolt on & go fixed neck!? Why not put some headstock angle on there in lieu of the straight Strat headstock?

Interesting enough to mention, Fender did make Mahogany Strats here & there although they would Not meet your requirements like this American Deluxe Mahogany model...

View attachment 3606View attachment 3607View attachment 3609

Look at that rounded heal joint Robert!!! That is a nice feature to duplicate if you do go with a bolt-on neck.

Oh, & don't leave out that 22nd fret in your design either! You will end up missing it! lol

Hey, Relic!

I have built custom guitars for people from Warmoth parts in the past, so this would be my own custom build. In fact, its a project that has been in the planning stages for years.

I am most comfortable with the Stratocaster body shape and I prefer the inline tuning keys. I also prefer the hardtail (fixed bridge) but like the options of a bolt-on neck, so those are my basic wants.

I like the "clubby" profile of my 2016 Gibson SG Neck. I have measured it so I can duplicate the profile on a large headstock Strat neck.

I like the feel and tone of mahogany, and its relatively light weight, so that sums up my wood choice.

I would use a dual radius fretboard (10" x 16") with small 6230 Fretwire, crowned down to about .025" off the rosewood. I would also use the more modern double acting truss rod.

The body would have the easy-to-shield "swimming pool" rout and angled, Tremolo style jack.

I would most likely use a Carvin H22T-1 in the bridge with DiMarzio Stacked Single Coils (Injector Models) in middle and neck positions as their flat pole profile eliminates magnetic pull which causes Wolftones.

The pickups would be easy to balance with the 8.8k H22T-1. I would use a custom, cloth covered wire harness with 500k volume, a 500k bridge tone, 250k middle tone with treble bleed and a wide-open neck pickup with treble bleed, .033uf K40Y tone capacitors and high quality 5 way switch.

This has been planned out on paper for years, but recently, my wife has encouraged me to start building it...

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Dayum Robert... you were a cop, you built fast ass cars, you brew your on high octane juice, play a mean ass guitar and you write killer songs. Is there anything you can't do?

And from my experience with Robert, his greatest accomplishment is his family. From the few conversations I have had with him regarding our similar and yet differing paths, Robert has been blessed with a loving wife and kids he loves dearly.

I have nothing to add about quietest pickups yet. In my experiences, all I have ever had was equipment that needed tweaking/repairs to make either quiet or even play reliably without breaking down on me. Hard to make evaluations on sound quality of parts like p'ups when amps themselves are noisy etc.

 

[Relic]

I like the Seymour Duncan '59s so much, I may put them into my Jackson. The '59s drive my amp harder than their DC resistance would lead you to believe. (One reason I cringe when people try to use the DC resistance to determine pickup output).

So true. There are several variables that can change that Ohm reading number. & while the number may go up, other things like using thinner wire, different compound magnets & various construction techniques & features (pole pieces, fixed blade(s) etc blah blah cetera) that can be incorporated to affect or tame the output / volume.

I'm just going to throw this out there for Robert to wrap his brain around & think upon with a dedicated compulsive determination to find the truth... Robert, you said..

I like the feel and tone of mahogany

So here it is, if the pickups are potted, sealed & basically not sensitive to microphonics & are producing sounds based on it specific parts make-up & the string movement that makes the induction process happen, do you really think that things like Mohagony instead of Maple for the body can have any affect on 'Darkness', 'Brightness' or tonal coloration when listening to the guitar electronically? LOL I know, I went there again. But if you think about this & even do some listening samples (like what Biddlin posted way back when on another forum) you can begin to think that we might be paying for some of these woods because we think they are making differences in our tone when they very well may actually have very little tangible tonal differences!
Now that can make yer head spin in circles for days brotha!

Then you might say, 'well surely woods affect sustain' & that wood be correct enough (see what I did there?? 'wood' be correct? lol sorry) So does sustain affect tone? What about various bridges? Can their design & make-up induce their own colorization on tone? I have some old Gibson guitars with lightening bolt wrap-arounds & I swear I can hear them sing! Or am I?

Anyway, the thought of us possibly chasing rare or endangered 'tone woods' & putting harvesting pressure on preferred species survival while affecting their immediate & long term availability because we believe we need these woods to achieve our tone with electric guitars,... (wooh, breathe...) may very well be a fools errand in the end if todays pickups are actually only reproducing what they 'pick up' through the induction process between pickup & strings!

Interesting thoughts for us guitarists to ponder & revisit. It is a fascinating subject to so many & lots of manufacturers & Luthiers make lots of extra coin pimpin out the need for these materials in their guitars.

I know one thing for certain, what really makes a difference is what we like & what makes us happy.

Now c'mon Bobert, how can you seriously consider forgoing all this beauty, mystery & additional musically rewarding sonic enrichment that comes through having multiple guitars that play, look & sound different.!?. I mean, who says 'I love & appreciate my art collection but really want to get rid of all these pieces & happily settle some day soon on having only one to look at & enjoy!' ?? Naa-ooo! Maybe, maybe, just maybe if ya know you are dying real soon & want to have your affairs in order by getting good money for your stuff & making sure that cash goes where you want. But short of impending death & dying... No No fvk'n no way no! LOL

Now, back to thinkin on 'tone wood' in todays electric guitars! lol

Rock On

 

[smitty_p]

Then you might say, 'well surely woods affect sustain' & that wood be correct enough (see what I did there?? 'wood' be correct? lol sorry) So does sustain affect tone? What about various bridges? Can their design & make-up induce their own colorization on tone? I have some old Gibson guitars with lightening bolt wrap-arounds & I swear I can hear them sing! Or am I?

Sooo, now we're REALLY jumping into the puddle!

At the risk of taking this further off-topic...

When it comes to the topic of tone-woods, I am very certain, and have no doubt about this. Quite simply, I am firmly riding the fence and adamantly render no opinion!

At one point, I really believed the wood had no influence...then as my sons were getting their degrees in mechanical engineering...we would talk about vibrations and properties of materials and I started to see some ramifications to our tone wood issue.

In short, I can conceive of a mechanism whereby the material of a guitar body and neck could affect string vibration, thus "tone." However, I believe the resulting effect (if any!) would be more in the range of subtlety and nuance, not a major factor. Unfortunately, I am reluctant to really verbalize my ideas, as I lack the means of performing an objective test. That's really where the rubber hits the road. Without an objective test, all other hypothesizing (I'm using the term "hypothesizing" in the colloquial sense...not the scientific sense) is really just musing. That includes Youtube videos trying to give sound samples and guys scratching out diagrams on whiteboards. Anyone can draw a picture on a whiteboard to support his opinion, and sound samples on Youtube don't mean much when you consider the inherent reduction in sound quality you'll get from the audio on a Youtube sample. This is compounded by the fact that most people are listening to these samples via a rather crappy computer sound card - either into even crappier speakers or earbuds. Even then, not everyone hears the same. Some people have more sensitivity than others.

Without some testing with real test equipment, everything else is, more or less, inconclusive.

I will say this, the amplifier, pickups, and electronics affect tone way more than any other factors...if those other factors even affect tone at all...which they may...or may not!

 

[Relic]

Sooo, now we're REALLY jumping into the puddle!

Oh yeah. I want Robert to spin his wheels & burn some rubber on this for a while & see what he comes up with, no doubt about it! lol

I sort of believe any tonal effect was better transferred through the pickups before they were potted & were more microphonic. But even then, they still worked on induction & not like a direct microphone so it was still limited! Right? lol Well, what about if you could yell in the pups & hear it come out your amp? lol

 

[smitty_p]

Oh yeah. I want Robert to spin his wheels & burn some rubber on this for a while & see what he comes up with, no doubt about it! lol

Ha!!! Sometimes, Relic-meister, you can be a cruel, cruel man!

 

[ivan H]

I will say this, the amplifier, pickups, and electronics affect tone way more than any other factors...if those other factors even affect tone at all...which they may...or may not!

And speakers. These have the final say in our tone & really can make a big difference. Cheers

 

[smitty_p]

And speakers. These have the final say in our tone & really can make a big difference. Cheers

Absolutely. I overlooked that element.

Thanks!

 

[Inspector #20]

So true. There are several variables that can change that Ohm reading number. & while the number may go up, other things like using thinner wire, different compound magnets & various construction techniques & features (pole pieces, fixed blade(s) etc blah blah cetera) that can be incorporated to affect or tame the output / volume.

I'm just going to throw this out there for Robert to wrap his brain around & think upon with a dedicated compulsive determination to find the truth... Robert, you said..



So here it is, if the pickups are potted, sealed & basically not sensitive to microphonics & are producing sounds based on it specific parts make-up & the string movement that makes the induction process happen, do you really think that things like Mohagony instead of Maple for the body can have any affect on 'Darkness', 'Brightness' or tonal coloration when listening to the guitar electronically? LOL I know, I went there again. But if you think about this & even do some listening samples (like what Biddlin posted way back when on another forum) you can begin to think that we might be paying for some of these woods because we think they are making differences in our tone when they very well may actually have very little tangible tonal differences!
Now that can make yer head spin in circles for days brotha!

Then you might say, 'well surely woods affect sustain' & that wood be correct enough (see what I did there?? 'wood' be correct? lol sorry) So does sustain affect tone? What about various bridges? Can their design & make-up induce their own colorization on tone? I have some old Gibson guitars with lightening bolt wrap-arounds & I swear I can hear them sing! Or am I?

Anyway, the thought of us possibly chasing rare or endangered 'tone woods' & putting harvesting pressure on preferred species survival while affecting their immediate & long term availability because we believe we need these woods to achieve our tone with electric guitars,... (wooh, breathe...) may very well be a fools errand in the end if todays pickups are actually only reproducing what they 'pick up' through the induction process between pickup & strings!

Interesting thoughts for us guitarists to ponder & revisit. It is a fascinating subject to so many & lots of manufacturers & Luthiers make lots of extra coin pimpin out the need for these materials in their guitars.

I know one thing for certain, what really makes a difference is what we like & what makes us happy.

Now c'mon Bobert, how can you seriously consider forgoing all this beauty, mystery & additional musically rewarding sonic enrichment that comes through having multiple guitars that play, look & sound different.!?. I mean, who says 'I love & appreciate my art collection but really want to get rid of all these pieces & happily settle some day soon on having only one to look at & enjoy!' ?? Naa-ooo! Maybe, maybe, just maybe if ya know you are dying real soon & want to have your affairs in order by getting good money for your stuff & making sure that cash goes where you want. But short of impending death & dying... No No fvk'n no way no! LOL

Now, back to thinkin on 'tone wood' in todays electric guitars! lol

Rock On

Good Morning, Relic!!!

Oh yes, the tone wood debate. Well, I am not one to be into super exotic woods. But I keep coming back to mahogany for several reasons. First of all, it's very light. My 1987 Squirecaster weighs 9.7 pounds and that was after being routed for dual humbuckers. My Schecter, basically the same shape (but with a carved maple top) weighs half of that and has more sustain, which could be due to the neck-through/string-through construction, but I do believe wood has more to do with tone than people believe. My Gibson SG weighs less than half of the Squirecaster and has more sustain that the neck-through/string-through Schecter!!!


My belief is that different woods have different densities. The density influences/amplifies vibration and that is where the tonal differences come from.

Please understand I am not criticizing anyone for having multiple guitars. For me, I just see it unnecessary to have even the three that I have now!!! I would much rather have an intimate relationship with a certain guitar that gives me everything I am looking for.,

Those who know me will tell you I was once known for an unreal classic car collection - I had 1949 Buick Eight, 1966 Nova SS, 1968 Olds Tornado, 1967 Hemi Coronet R/T, (3) 1969 Dodge Charger RT/SE's, NASCAR Dodge Charger 500, 1969 Daytona, 1968 GTX, 1968 Road Runner, 1967 GT500, 1972 Torino Cobra, 1975 Firebird Formula, several Porsche 911's,a 1972 Lamborghini Jarama, 1968 Maserati Mexico, and a 1970 Muira SV. For a long time In California, you had to smog cars all the way back to 1966 and this impacted the values of these cars and they were not crazy valuable back then. Along about 1998, California repealed the smog inspection rule and all vehicles made prior to 1975 were suddenly smog exempt.

Within 6 months, the values of these older cars skyrocketed and I sold all of them. It was the best decision I ever made. Having that many cars, up to 7 at the same time, was a complete distraction to me. I am OCD and it manifested itself in many ways.

I have never owned a car with an automatic (except to flip) and today, I own and drive one car - a 2006 Mustang GT 5 speed. I do everything in this car and although I have plans to buy a brand new Mustang, I have no plans to have more than one car. I will likely give this one to one of my kids.

So, I see guitars in much the same way.....

I just want one...

 

[Inspector #20]

Oh yeah. I want Robert to spin his wheels & burn some rubber on this for a while & see what he comes up with, no doubt about it! lol

I sort of believe any tonal effect was better transferred through the pickups before they were potted & were more microphonic. But even then, they still worked on induction & not like a direct microphone so it was still limited! Right? lol Well, what about if you could yell in the pups & hear it come out your amp? lol

Relic, You could be right about the unpotted pickups picking up nuances...

 

[Inspector #20]

And speakers. These have the final say in our tone & really can make a big difference. Cheers

Agreed, Amps & Cabinets...Biggest tonal influence IMHO.

 

[Inspector #20]

Sooo, now we're REALLY jumping into the puddle!

At the risk of taking this further off-topic...

When it comes to the topic of tone-woods, I am very certain, and have no doubt about this. Quite simply, I am firmly riding the fence and adamantly render no opinion!

At one point, I really believed the wood had no influence...then as my sons were getting their degrees in mechanical engineering...we would talk about vibrations and properties of materials and I started to see some ramifications to our tone wood issue.

In short, I can conceive of a mechanism whereby the material of a guitar body and neck could affect string vibration, thus "tone." However, I believe the resulting effect (if any!) would be more in the range of subtlety and nuance, not a major factor. Unfortunately, I am reluctant to really verbalize my ideas, as I lack the means of performing an objective test. That's really where the rubber hits the road. Without an objective test, all other hypothesizing (I'm using the term "hypothesizing" in the colloquial sense...not the scientific sense) is really just musing. That includes Youtube videos trying to give sound samples and guys scratching out diagrams on whiteboards. Anyone can draw a picture on a whiteboard to support his opinion, and sound samples on Youtube don't mean much when you consider the inherent reduction in sound quality you'll get from the audio on a Youtube sample. This is compounded by the fact that most people are listening to these samples via a rather crappy computer sound card - either into even crappier speakers or earbuds. Even then, not everyone hears the same. Some people have more sensitivity than others.

Without some testing with real test equipment, everything else is, more or less, inconclusive.

I will say this, the amplifier, pickups, and electronics affect tone way more than any other factors...if those other factors even affect tone at all...which they may...or may not!

Good points!!!!!!

 

[Inspector #20]

Oh yeah. I want Robert to spin his wheels & burn some rubber on this for a while & see what he comes up with, no doubt about it! lol

I sort of believe any tonal effect was better transferred through the pickups before they were potted & were more microphonic. But even then, they still worked on induction & not like a direct microphone so it was still limited! Right? lol Well, what about if you could yell in the pups & hear it come out your amp? lol

I have to say that the low ohms, potted PAF clones in my Gibson SG really sound good. I am not 100% comfortable with how the SG feels, (although I have always liked their appearance) but I love the "clubby" neck enough to measure it with the intent of having it duplicated on a Fender Stratocaster neck with 34-3/4" scale length!!!!