Do Power Tubes Have a Particular Sound???

[Mr Grumpy]

...my new amp, small, with an EL84 is encouraging me to ask this question.

On one side, folks say that it's a product of total amp design and the power tube is somewhat meaningless.

On the other side, I've heard that EL84s are good for small wattage amps to make them chimey with quite an aggressive breakup.

My personal feeling is yes and yes, no and no, and maybe and maybe. It's a product of the amp design and can (or cannot) choose to use 'inherent' power tube characteristics. My Randall RD1 was amazing and it used an 12au7 as a power tube - very non-conventional, extremely early breakup, no clean and amazing OD sounds (not even talking about the driven sounds...). This 5w Cornell, when pushed in gain and volume is most similar to a VOX AC, so quite conventional - not distortion but bitey, slightly snarly OD.

Do power tubes have a particular sound in your amp? What's your preference?

 

[steveb63]

...my new amp, small, with an EL84 is encouraging me to ask this question.

On one side, folks say that it's a product of total amp design and the power tube is somewhat meaningless.

On the other side, I've heard that EL84s are good for small wattage amps to make them chimey with quite an aggressive breakup.

My personal feeling is yes and yes, no and no, and maybe and maybe. It's a product of the amp design and can (or cannot) choose to use 'inherent' power tube characteristics. My Randall RD1 was amazing and it used an 12au7 as a power tube - very non-conventional, extremely early breakup, no clean and amazing OD sounds (not even talking about the driven sounds...). This 5w Cornell, when pushed in gain and volume is most similar to a VOX AC, so quite conventional - not distortion but bitey, slightly snarly OD.

Do power tubes have a particular sound in your amp? What's your preference?

I have the Marshall 2061, it takes EL-84's.

The only amp that I own that eats power tubes, not kidding. Think it's because of the low wattage always have it wound up tight.

That being said, I like the JJ's, they hold up o.k., and have less of the famous EL-84 fizziness. Since these are not expensive type tubes, my suggestion is to buy a few different types and see how they sound to you.

Lots of peoples are brand loyal to tubes, others can't hear a big difference. ( that would be me).

The nice thing about my 2061 is that it doesn't need biasing when changing power tubes, so I can switch around at will.

I believe it's called "cathode biased"? Smarter minds than me will chime in to let me know if I'm correct. If this is how your amp is put together, then it's time for you to buy a few and let us know what YOUR findings are. I, for one, would be very interested in how different manufactures products sound.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Inspector #20]

...my new amp, small, with an EL84 is encouraging me to ask this question.

On one side, folks say that it's a product of total amp design and the power tube is somewhat meaningless.

On the other side, I've heard that EL84s are good for small wattage amps to make them chimey with quite an aggressive breakup.

My personal feeling is yes and yes, no and no, and maybe and maybe. It's a product of the amp design and can (or cannot) choose to use 'inherent' power tube characteristics. My Randall RD1 was amazing and it used an 12au7 as a power tube - very non-conventional, extremely early breakup, no clean and amazing OD sounds (not even talking about the driven sounds...). This 5w Cornell, when pushed in gain and volume is most similar to a VOX AC, so quite conventional - not distortion but bitey, slightly snarly OD.

Do power tubes have a particular sound in your amp? What's your preference?

Tubes are a fine tuner. Some give you more or less of a given character, but its the preamp tubes that have the greatest effect on tone (to my ears) since power tubes are not really "in play," so to speak, until very high volume levels.

EL-34 seems great to me, even though my 2203 had KT-88's, no real difference between them IMHO.

 

[BFT Gibson]

lots of mic time last 6 months..base all my amp selection for useage on 3 criteria
what guitar
what amp
what speakers

have certain guitars that pair well with certain amps..play multi genre with no real thing to emulate in a way

my observations

6l6- fender's -classic big bottom & glassy highs..very full..scooped mids
6l6 Peavey..best of everything, mids not scooped
6l6 in Marshall jtm45-fender power,,there is the 6l6 with mid punch cause of the circuit, fun amp on greenbacks

el84..love em ..wound up amps..just has the mid thing going i favor for recording & a lil less chimey than F but great usable cleans in a hairy type way
BUG v22..not 1 weakness at all from quasi fender clean to mix of vox with killer mids
Peavey Blues Classic..became ny main sound..just reveals the guitar character like no other amp ever played,,,the 50 isnt as wound up as a vox so its got more girth & cleaner cleans..but serious punch when needed..most sounds are available in this amp

El34.redundant..have 9 marshalls..can basically substitute them all for eachother,,DSL50 cops most, SLX for modded 800,

kt66 real big bottom & clean in Vm2266 just a killer amp from fendery to plexi t the brootz..all n 1 amp(celestion g12c speakers are key on those amp

6973 tubes..this to me is the sweet find..the el84 type with more american sound..just huge bottom..glassy hight..recrded dream

all this tho all coordinates with the guitars & speakers...speakers radically shift the amp position in a mix

also..my belief the amps are designed to perform best opened up the designed wattage range ..bedroom levels d not work at tube & amp anywhere near the mojo zone..

The Supro Black Magick..dime it & hold on ..the old school simple circuit is just a great ride through the time machine of rock

way into this & have em all hooked up side by side for comparison all day long..no mysteries,,just whats coming out the speaker to hear...no way to compare properly unless they are right beside each other..same guitar..same volume...

yu could take all my amps..but not the Supro, Peavey Classic, Fender Super Reverb, DSL50,

 

[67plexi]

The original Vox AC series used a EF86 pre amp tube that has a gain factor of 180 a 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100
The EF86 that sounds best to me was made in 1965 by Mullard same with EL84'S Mullard's made in England and 12AX7's Mullard
made in England why the sound is warm and they last 5,000 to 10,000 hours not cheap

NOS Mullard Made EL84 / 6BQ5

 

[syscokid]

Yes... no... maybe...
I have two amps with EL84s. My Spiffy XVI, which is a very loosely based Carvin Vintage 16, is powered with a pair of EL84s. Fixed bias with no negative feedback. This one has the stereotypical EL84 chime and grind, and very Voxy... me likey! The other amp is a Fryette Memphis 30: 2 channel, cathode biased, "Class A", powered by a quartet of EL84s. This amp sounds nothing like the Spiffy, nor does it have that typical EL84 sound. Lots of voicing features... me likey.

Other amps include two with 6V6s, one with 6L6s, one with EL34s, and one with 6550s... me likey all!

 

[jtcnj]

From what I read, the same tube type, say swapping different sourced el84's in one amp, may have some noticeable differences between them. Here you are comparing apples to apples.

I dont really hear it unless it is noisy or microphonic.
In general I dont hear a lot of the subtle differences talked about in general, maybe I am ignorantly blessed.

The difference between output tube types may a very real thing, but typically the sound associated with the tube is more the circuit that tube is widely used in. The Marshal or Fender or Vox "sound" is more based on the circuit than the tube type typically identified with those brands.

tube type typically tongue twister.

Some amps allow the use of different octal based tubes; they may sound different in that amp. Whether they sound "good" or "bad" may be more to do with "in that particular amp" than the tubes themselves.

 

[Inspector #20]

I can plug into a DSL40C, or a Dumble Overdrive Special, or Germino, Supro, Randall or whatever a given studio has on hand, and once the tone controls are adjusted, they sound pretty much the same.

I refuse to fall back into a lifelong trap of chasing nuances. Its just too distracting and counter-productive to earning an income and having adequate time to do non-music activities.

I spent a fortune chasing tone and buying gear...5 brand new Gibson's between 2016 and 2017...so i just don't want to go down that road again...

At least Adrian got a free Gibson SG out of all that drama, so there was a happy ending at least...

 

[Inspector #20]

From what I read, the same tube type, say swapping different sourced el84's in one amp, may have some noticeable differences between them. Here you are comparing apples to apples.

I dont really hear it unless it is noisy or microphonic.
In general I dont hear a lot of the subtle differences talked about in general, maybe I am ignorantly blessed.

The difference between output tube types may a very real thing, but typically the sound associated with the tube is more the circuit that tube is widely used in. The Marshal or Fender or Vox "sound" is more based on the circuit than the tube type typically identified with those brands.

tube type typically tongue twister.

Some amps allow the use of different octal based tubes; they may sound different in that amp. Whether they sound "good" or "bad" may be more to do with "in that particular amp" than the tubes themselves.

Good points!!!

 

[BFT Gibson]

Open invite to my place..bring proper video camera ...lets get it all out in the open. I have Russian..china..NOS....lets do a modern amp & a vintage tube roll....ps i favor a lot of cheapy tubes...

 

[BFT Gibson]

So wish somebody did live near me,,, would put the effort into a decent gear channel..real simple stuff..

but without help..never would do it when there is music to make..new music vs analyzing the already done...

my buddy approached me about doing live concerts from here...do have the set up to possibly make one heck of a place to film from in the bandroom ..who knows...

 

[ivan H]

I'll second Mr 67plexi's recommendation. NOS Mullard.
A bit of general info about EL84's, power tubes amplify current. The EL84 is somewhat unique in that it amplifies voltage as well as current. Cheers

 

[BFT Gibson]

I'll second Mr 67plexi's recommendation. NOS Mullard.
A bit of general info about EL84's, power tubes amplify current. The EL84 is somewhat unique in that it amplifies voltage as well as current. Cheers

i really landed on 84's hard here lately...with your explanation there (not a tech but get what they do) what is that voltage & current multiplying doing? is it why an 84 gets so radical so fast? ..i call them an urgent tone tube..if that makes sense..or like a very fast attack..like right at you ..not a thump..not fizz but like a very controllable-usable urgency on the edge of riding the guitar volume..like a very touchy throttle on a race car

 

[eSGEe]

they sound like broken glass when dropped on a hard surface.

 

[ivan H]

i really landed on 84's hard here lately...with your explanation there (not a tech but get what they do) what is that voltage & current multiplying doing? is it why an 84 gets so radical so fast? ..i call them an urgent tone tube..if that makes sense..or like a very fast attack..like right at you ..not a thump..not fizz but like a very controllable-usable urgency on the edge of riding the guitar volume..like a very touchy throttle on a race car

Whether they were designed to amplify voltage as well as current, or it was just a happenstance I don't know. They don't massively amplify voltage either, I'd have to look it up to find the exact voltage amplification figure. They are used in power stages for current amplification, though I don't doubt that their amplifying voltage somewhat contributes to that "urgent" characteristic you've noted. Cheers

 

[Mr Grumpy]

I have the Marshall 2061, it takes EL-84's. The only amp that I own that eats power tubes, not kidding. Think it's because of the low wattage always have it wound up tight.

That's interesting, my manual states: "Power valves have a much shorter life than pre-amp valves, which can last for years."

The nice thing about my 2061 is that it doesn't need biasing when changing power tubes, so I can switch around at will.

I don't know about my amp, doesn't say in the manual, so if anybody on here knows then please tell me! I don't know if this helps:

believe it's called "cathode biased"? Smarter minds than me will chime in to let me know if I'm correct. If this is how your amp is put together, then it's time for you to buy a few and let us know what YOUR findings are. I, for one, would be very interested in how different manufactures products sound.

Yes, I may well do that.

Some give you more or less of a given character, but its the preamp tubes that have the greatest effect on tone (to my ears) since power tubes are not really "in play," so to speak, until very high volume levels.

That's interesting and I used to think the same. But, with the Origin 20 (any Plexi) and also this Cornell amp, theey both sound much better to my ears with the volume dimmed getting the power tube working. I'm not sure how exactly that works with the attenuator, but due to the more compressed sound (along with less headroom) as you reduce the power level, I presume that the power tube is working hard - I like that sound.

EL-34 seems great to me, even though my 2203 had KT-88's, no real difference between them IMHO.

But those tubes are not directly comparable according to this video, so it must be largely due to amp design? (I don't know at all what I'm talking about here...)

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Obviously, this fella has a good video on this subject (on EL84s though...):

I liked them all, clear differences, my favourites with the KT66 and EL34.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

el84..love em ..wound up amps..just has the mid thing going i favor for recording & a lil less chimey than F but great usable cleans in a hairy type way

Yeah, I can see (hear) that - good explanation.

also..my belief the amps are designed to perform best opened up the designed wattage range ..bedroom levels d not work at tube & amp anywhere near the mojo zone..

Yes, that's certainly true. But, you can get good tones at below 70db, and you can get kicking tones (mojo zone tones) at just over 80db (which if the wife is out then I do...) :dood:

The original Vox AC series used a EF86 pre amp tube that has a gain factor of 180 a 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100

That's very interesting, that's gotta give you a lot of push early on.

NOS Mullard Made EL84 / 6BQ5

Blimey, 10 times the normal price...

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Yes... no... maybe...
I have two amps with EL84s. My Spiffy XVI, which is a very loosely based Carvin Vintage 16, is powered with a pair of EL84s. Fixed bias with no negative feedback. This one has the stereotypical EL84 chime and grind, and very Voxy... me likey! The other amp is a Fryette Memphis 30: 2 channel, cathode biased, "Class A", powered by a quartet of EL84s. This amp sounds nothing like the Spiffy, nor does it have that typical EL84 sound. Lots of voicing features... me likey.

Other amps include two with 6V6s, one with 6L6s, one with EL34s, and one with 6550s... me likey all!

You're just a music slut, easily pleased!

That Spiffy XVI is a fantastic amp. Can you easily change the power setup before shipping to Korea?

 

[Mr Grumpy]

The difference between output tube types may a very real thing, but typically the sound associated with the tube is more the circuit that tube is widely used in. The Marshal or Fender or Vox "sound" is more based on the circuit than the tube type typically identified with those brands.

Everything factors in, but the circuit design must be the key element, I'd agree with you. (Although, I don't know what I'm talking about...)

I dont really hear it unless it is noisy or microphonic.
In general I dont hear a lot of the subtle differences talked about in general, maybe I am ignorantly blessed.

We hear differently, frequency range, preferences, etc. My ears seem to be my keenest sense, so I often hear clear differences when other folks don't (almost always they are far better guitar players than me though...).

I can plug into a DSL40C, or a Dumble Overdrive Special, or Germino, Supro, Randall or whatever a given studio has on hand, and once the tone controls are adjusted, they sound pretty much the same.

Hmmm, I'm struggling with that, Robert - respectfully.

If you are talking multi-channel amps with lots of knobs then perhaps you can find a middle-ish sound that most will replicate well enough. But, my 1 watt Randall did not have a single sound in it that could be gotten from my Marshall Origin or DSL, a Bugera T5 or Cornell 5 (the last two have similar preamp tubes, power tubes, power rating and attenuators, and they still sound very different from each other).

Let's say you stick a Randall RD45 next to a Marshall DSL40 - in theory, similar-ish amps in some ways - surely every sound from clean to low OD to high OD, distortion and mega-distortion are gonna be completely different in those amps.