Modeling v. Valve amps: The modern debate

My "practice" amp is my red knob Princeton Chorus 2x10.
If you want clean, one only has to play almost any Fender amp. In my case, I paid $90 used and then upgraded speakers to Webers.
While this makes it heavier due to bigger magnets in the Webers, the improvement in sound is killer.

So, it is neither a Modeler nor a Tube amp but a well reputed Solid State, but I like it.
 
Alright, I am trying this again. Still have a need for a "practice" amp, even though I have been using my Mark 5:25 with headphones lately to great effect. Just need something small/portable/simple that I can bring to the office/sit on the patio with/do a small jam with - a grab-n-go, y'know?

So, I picked up a Boss Katana 50
https://www.boss.info/us/products/katana-50/

It's small and light enough and importantly has a 12" speaker and in theory enough power for a jam, although I have only had it a short time and have not confirmed that yet, probably over the weekend. Also, it was quite inexpensive and I have always had good luck with Boss products.

You should have bought my Fender Super Champ X2 Head...Tubes + Modeling + Small...just add speaker...
 
Ach. That would have been nice. Didn't know you were selling one, darn it.
They go for around $200-250.
Get a combo and a 1X12" or 2X12" cab, so you then have the choice of the classic Champ 10" tone on first clean all tube channel or the thick fat tones through the extension cab, on the voices channel. Pretty good Marshall and Vox voices in there.
 
I have played them and do like them, but this Katana will be good for its intended purpose and besides, I can't take it back now after installing the replacement speaker - I had to clip the disconnects and solder the leads to the speaker terminals because the stock disconnects were too small for the WGS lugs!
 
From 1997 until 2016, I used a Marshall Vs265 2X12 Hybrid Chorus Combo....I recently added a pair of DSL40C's to my lineup. The VS265's tube pre-amp and SS amp sound great, even after all these years.....
 
Alright, I am trying this again. Still have a need for a "practice" amp, even though I have been using my Mark 5:25 with headphones lately to great effect. Just need something small/portable/simple that I can bring to the office/sit on the patio with/do a small jam with - a grab-n-go, y'know?

So, I picked up a Boss Katana 50
https://www.boss.info/us/products/katana-50/

It's small and light enough and importantly has a 12" speaker and in theory enough power for a jam, although I have only had it a short time and have not confirmed that yet, probably over the weekend. Also, it was quite inexpensive and I have always had good luck with Boss products.

Initial impressions are:
1. The stock speaker is truly awful. I installed a WGS ET-65 and the improvement was dramatic.
2. Don't expect anything resembling a usable clean tone and you won't be let down. That's actually been my experience with all modelers, but in this case they are specifically marketing this thing as a "rock" amp and clearly have not put a lot of time into honing the clean tone.
3. It actually gets really, really loud. It does sound as loud as a 40/50 watt tube amp but the proof is in the jam and we'll see if it disappears when the drums kick in.
4. Build quality is a bit better than I have seen in other brands at a similar price point. I had to remove the chassis to put the new speaker in and was quite surprised that the electronics are fully encased and there is a large aluminum heat sink on the underside that the amp chips are mounted to, kind of like a stereo amp.
5. The "Brown Sound" model is worth the price of admission. They took it from the uber-expensive Waza amp and it delivers. It is the best "feeling" model I have run across in a low-dollar practice amp and reacts very much like a tube amp to changes in the guitar volume knob. Nice!
6. The "crunch" and "lead" amp models, whatever they are based on, are budget amp standard fare. Unlikely I will use them, especially considering how good the "brown" model is, which I will likely simply program 2 versions of (high gain and low gain) into the presets.
7. The onboard effects are hit and miss. The Blues Driver, Analog Delay and Octave are killer. Most everything else, including the reverbs is meh, and the Touch Wah is utterly unusable. Fine by me, I only need 2 good sounds for the average jam.

All-in-all, it's a heck of a nice package for 2 bills. For an extra $70 to put a good speaker in I think I have what I want for a portable/inexpensive amp that I won't worry about.
It's not high-end by any means, but I do have to admit that the state-of-the-art is moving very quickly with modeling amps. The "brown" model is simply a great-sounding guitar amp and I am pretty impressed at this price point.

Does it sound as good as a tube amp? Probably depends more on the tube amp than on the Katana: it's not half as detailed, responsive, dynamic or organic as my Mark 5 (and shouldn't be for a fraction of the price). It's pretty much on par with some tube amps I have played that fall into the $500/$600 range though, and that's kind of impressive. As I said earlier in the thread, I feel certain that one day we'll all be playing modelers in one form or another - this makes me realize the biggest hill to climb is likely glassy-to-greasy clan tones. I have not heard a modeler come close to those yet.

Thanks for the great review, @gball :)
 
As always, the proof is in the sound. To repeat, I use both modellers and amps. But sometimes, there are those "Ah-hah" moments that are pretty revealing.

I remember a couple of years ago when I went to a 4th of July fireworks display at the local fairgrounds. I like to get there a little early because they always have some local band play in the early evening prior to the fireworks. Anyway, as the family and I are hauling the lawn chairs and cooler to where we want to sit, I start hearing some of the meatiest, most singing Stratocaster tones coming from where the band is playing. As soon as we got situated, I rushed over to see the band.

The guitar player was playing through a floor processor run straight to the mix. He had a small amp near him for monitoring, but I could see the line from the processor to the mix. I don't recall the name of the band, but they did a lot of different styles of mostly original tunes. It was a simple setup: female vocal, guitar player, bass player, drums, and keys. Sometimes the bass player or guitar player sang. It was cool and sounded pretty nice. My point is, I didn't see the rig before I heard them. I heard them first and thought the sound was great...then I saw the rig.

Anyhoo...the proof is in the hearing...

HOWEVER, allow me to straddle the fence!

I personally find processors to be best for those applications where I have to play several styles and get a variety of sounds. The cost and space required to get the same thing with real amps and effects would be pretty significant. But, if a band plays a more focused style and doesn't change sounds a huge degree from song to song, a real amp with a few pedals is just fine. That's my approach, anyway.

In a sense, I innately prefer real amps. I admit it. But, take the last gig I played. We played songs ranging from motown, to country, to rock, to '80s style metal...all with a mix with limited inputs. The different amps required would have taken up too much room and would have been too much of a hassle to set up in the mix with limited setup time. So, knowing this beforehand, I set up all my sounds in my processor. All I had to do was give the mix operator one XLR cable. Everything else was ready to go in the processor.

At another event, I may have opted for amps. It all depends.

Again, I don't like to see the processor/modeller and amplifier discussion as an either/or proposition. I think it's more useful to use the system that works best at the time.
 
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As always, the proof is in the sound. To repeat, I use both modellers and amps. But sometimes, there are those "Ah-hah" moments that are pretty revealing.

Anyhoo...the proof is in the hearing...

Again, I don't like to see the processor/modeller and amplifier discussion as an either/or proposition. I think it's more useful to use the system that works best at the time.

Some real truth there, my friend.

As a follow-up: I took the Katana to a jam over the weekend and it was very eye opening, as this is the first time I have actually attempted to play a modeling amp at gigging/jam volume. First, and perhaps most surprising, is it's power section reacted very much like a tube amp to volume settings and honestly got better and better sounding (up until it was so loud that it was unusable - I just had to dime the thing once to find out!). Backed off to normal jam/small gig volumes you'd be hard pressed to hear a difference in the way the power amp reacted to the guitar volume versus a tube amp. That was shocking to me.

Now, I have to eat some crow and say that I was very wrong about the nature of the "crunch" and "lead" models. They are very good and very usable at volume (I still think they both sound pretty lifeless at low volume so for practicing I will stick with the "brown" model). The crunch is modeled on a Marshall JMP if I had to guess (they don't tell you), and with the gain about half way up and the Blues Driver engaged with just a touch of dirt in front it was very, very convincing. I spent most of the 3-1/2 hour jam on this setting and got more than a few comments about the quality of the tone (I am sure the WGS speaker had some small hand in this). I was playing my Les Paul Traditional, for reference, but I tried the same settings at home later with my ASAT and got similarly excellent results.

Now, let me be clear that while the quality of tones are extremely good it was not as rich and detailed a sound as a high quality tube amp. But...that all goes out the window when the rest of the guys kick in, and for what it is I am very pleasantly surprised with the amp. It's a great grab-and-go box and is starting to change my mind about modelers to some extent. This is the third modeling amp I have owned but the first that sounded like an actual guitar amp and now I think I am liking the fact that I have another option.
 
But...that all goes out the window when the rest of the guys kick in....

That is exactly my experience, too. Once the rest of the band plays, especially the drums, any modelling nuances you noticed during your own private practice time seem to disappear in the mix.
 
I started playing with the modeling stuff right from the start of my journey to learn guitar. The first amp I bought was a Line 6 Spider IV. While it had some really nice sounds
it just left a whole lot to be desired. One thing I hate about it is the jump in volume when you change models. You best be quick on the volume knob lest you blow a speaker
or your ear drums out.

After I played around with the Spider and read all the forum posts I could stand I knew I just HAD to have some tube amps. So I bought a VOX AC15C1 and although it
sounds great when playing it will not quiet down when setting idle. The constant hiss drives me crazy. No amount of shielding, new tube sets, high end cables or power
line noise suppressors will help. Maybe it's all the fluorescent lighting here?

Next came the Fender Super Champ, part tube, part modeler. This one is a head only and I play it mainly through a cab with a sixty/seventy 12". It is quiet and it sounds
great on most cleans and mile distortion. Heavy distortion not as much. It may be the low cost speaker???

Then I heard about the great price on the Silkyn amps and the background about the big name designer behind them. I couldn't resist and bought two of them. They are
fantastic 6L6 tube amp with both a Fender and Marshall circuit in them and they sound great and get DAMN loud, just ask Wav...I almost gave him hearing damage...

During this time I still felt the urge to do some heaving straying into modeling and got a Line 6 POD HD500X. I barely got my hands dirty messing with it and the Helix came
out...and you guessed it...I bought one along with a Line 6 Stage Source L2t powered FRFR PA monitor speaker. The Pod HD500X was immediately sold and I was hooked
on modeling with the Helix rig! It is seeing wide spread use with many pro studio and gigging musicians and that is because it truly performs! I'm not going to try and convince
anyone that they can't tell the difference between a modeler and a real tube, but you need to hear one live!

Finally last week I took another plunge in the water and bought a Kemper Profiler Amp. This unit works in a different fashion where as it actually profiles the real rig ie. Fender, Marshall
or whatever rig live and reproduces it's sound. I've only had two days to play with it, but it is far and and away the best I've played yet! This thing has thousands of real rigs profiled
and they sound incredible! Want to play a Dumble and don't have $50,000 well they have been profiled and the sound is unbelievable!

So with all this real world buying, playing, testing and comparing I'm satisfied that the modeling/profiling path is the one for me. I'm going to sell off all my amps other than one Silkyn
because I don't need them. I just want to keep the Silkyn because I spent so much time working on it and re-covering it...

I'm going to keep the Helix as well because even though I feel the Kemper is a better profiler I want to have a unit at home and one at work so I don't have to drag the things around...

And for those who think the profiler takes away from the special qualities that each guitar may impart have a listen to this video. Same pick up and same exact modeling setting
the only thing changed up was the guitar...

 
I think we've all known for a while that this is where we are all headed. I am not ready to give up my Mark 5 just yet - it is the sound I hear in my head - but I am going to admit that it is nice to start getting my feet wet with a decent-sounding modeler as my past experience with them was uniformy negative, and I will likely be looking to upgrade to a better sounding one sometime in the near future.
 
what an interesting thread. Bravo, tone rooms community!
Shaving kit 2@100.jpg
My father gave me this Gillette 'Safety Razor" in like 1962. I was 14 and had some hair growing on my upper lip.
He taught me how to use it properly, and not cut myself too badly with a new blade. And I've been using this same
piece of ordnance ever since. *grins The shaving soap cost small money, and one cake of that lasts ME for a long
long time. I shave when the hair on my throat and the back of my neck gets too outrageous.

The mug was made for me by a loving lady, and I figured out that it was the perfect size for a cake of shaving soap.
She had imagined Japanese Green Tea (my fave) when turning the mug on the potter's wheel, or maybe Espresso (not my fave)...
But I've been using the same mug for decades now, and think about her every time I touch it. There it is.

I would never allow a straight razor anywhere near my Jugular vein, since I actually like my old Gillette.
Come too close to me with yer damn razor and I'm likely to put a couple of .45s through yer center... slow ya down some.
I don't like shaving very much, and grew a beard as soon as I had the freedom to do so. And I still have it. I lost most of
the rest of my hair, but the beard remains. Grey around the muzzle now.

I read all this thread with interest. I congratulate all the differing members for not descending into mindlessness while
we disagree. I don't have to agree with a person to be interested in what they have to say. And this thread shows that
sentiment very well. Thanks guys. I actually learned a lot. We really are a diverse crowd, but one thing we have in common
is the desire to create good music... the best way we know how.
 
I think we've all known for a while that this is where we are all headed. I am not ready to give up my Mark 5 just yet - ...

There again, there is no need to "give up" anything!

You like the Mark 5 - KEEP IT!

Honestly, there will be times when you want to play through it...and other times when you really want to use the modeller.

As I've insisted many times, I really dislike this whole discussion turning into a "This vs. That" situation. There is no "Versus."

I've used either platform during both private practice and live playing. Sometimes one will seem to work better...sometimes the other will seem to work better. Sometimes, quite honestly, the decision to use one or the other will have little to do with any technical distinction and will really depend on how you feel at the moment. I don't apologize for that. A very large component of what we do in music revolves around feelings, anyway. So, for any given event or purpose, as long as you can get the job done properly, there's really nothing wrong with choosing the one you feel better with at the time.
 
There again, there is no need to "give up" anything!

You like the Mark 5 - KEEP IT!

Honestly, there will be times when you want to play through it...and other times when you really want to use the modeller.

As I've insisted many times, I really dislike this whole discussion turning into a "This vs. That" situation. There is no "Versus."

I've used either platform during both private practice and live playing. Sometimes one will seem to work better...sometimes the other will seem to work better. Sometimes, quite honestly, the decision to use one or the other will have little to do with any technical distinction and will really depend on how you feel at the moment. I don't apologize for that. A very large component of what we do in music revolves around feelings, anyway. So, for any given event or purpose, as long as you can get the job done properly, there's really nothing wrong with choosing the one you feel better with at the time.

Right on! smitty! :cheers:
 
BTW-I hate shaving, but I use disposable Gillette 3 blades. I shave in the shower, no soap, foam, or cream. Works for me.
 
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