round the world lemon goodness NFGD

[smitty_p]

...I would call it a 3 footer--- from 3 foot away its as good as any other Gibson-- in the hands of someone who has held HUNDREDS of Gibsons ........its OBVIOUS its not a REAL Gibson.

I have a composite picture of all my guitars that I use as my background on my computer. This picture includes the pic of my Les Paul. I've been comparing the picture of eSGEe's guitar to the picture of my Les Paul.

Y'know what's scary about this fake? It really looks like a Les Paul! I'm sure someone who knows very specific details to look for may be able to look at the picture and find some red flags. But, there is nothing obvious that jumps out and says, "Fake."

I'd bet two dimes and a nickel that it would fool nearly 100% of an audience.

 

[gball]

I have a composite picture of all my guitars that I use as my background on my computer. This picture includes the pic of my Les Paul. I've been comparing the picture of eSGEe's guitar to the picture of my Les Paul.

Y'know what's scary about this fake? It really looks like a Les Paul! I'm sure someone who knows very specific details to look for may be able to look at the picture and find some red flags. But, there is nothing obvious that jumps out and says, "Fake."

I'd bet two dimes and a nickel that it would fool nearly 100% of an audience.

That's what bothers me most about them. The deceit even extends to stamping "Made In USA" on the headstock, which at this point is just one more lie among many.

There are too many d-bags who try to pass these things off as the real-deal and uninformed people pay serious money and get ripped off. I know, "buyer beware" and all, but if these things were not being made there wouldn't be an issue.

You want a Gibson? Buy a f!#@ing Gibson. Sorry Adrian, you know I love you man, but these things are a problem not a solution and there is no way to rationalize owning one.

 

[Sp8ctre]

That's what bothers me most about them. The deceit even extends to stamping "Made In USA" on the headstock, which at this point is just one more lie among many.

There are too many d-bags who try to pass these things off as the real-deal and uninformed people pay serious money and get ripped off. I know, "buyer beware" and all, but if these things were not being made there wouldn't be an issue.

You want a Gibson? Buy a f!#@ing Gibson. Sorry Adrian, you know I love you man, but these things are a problem not a solution and there is no way to rationalize owning one.

The thing is...those who choose to own one need not rationalize...they just do.

 

[DonP]

New
Fake
Gibson
Day

Well.......took over a month------but--- today the much discussed---and somewhat disgusted over at that "other" place------is here---- frankly I have watched these for some time.....and after Sp8ctre had success----and got lots of guff --- buing his Slash model.........I checked and well---- a discounted "Gibson R9, 59 Lester".....for 188.00 ---DELIVERED to my door--- was just tooooo tempting.......
View attachment 1669
View attachment 1668
View attachment 1667

FOOL report---- and -- TOTAL DISCLOSURE---
IS it AS good as a GIBSON? ----well--- no-- However it is DAMN good for under 200.00 new delivered.
ALSO tbtf --- it needs some adjusting --- it is not "perfect out of the box" but HELL I wouldnt be either if I spent 36 days in a box flying around the WORLD--------this thing went from China to NY to Tampa to me.....that is a long commute.
--its as good as the Epiphones --Greg Bennetts--jay Tursers and that lot/ilk.
Tuners and hardware are cheesy roughly Epiphone level quality---but functional ---though in time will be replaced....

--- its finish is good, frets and inlays excellent---tone is great---sustain is as good as anything I own.....
Strings are crap--- they will go--- and it will get a good set up tomorrow and SHOULD be a perfectly serviceable good looking hunk of Gibbenstein

HOWEVER I would call it a 3 footer--- from 3 foot away its as good as any other Gibson-- in the hands of someone who has held HUNDREDS of Gibsons ........its OBVIOUS its not a REAL Gibson.

Regardless -- I like it

The only real 3-foot give-away for me is the tuners - their alignment is a bit all over the place. But that's pt. Gibson need to look out.

 

[gball]

The thing is...those who choose to own one need not rationalize...they just do.

I don't know, I am unconvinced by that. I think any person who is well aware that they are purchasing counterfeit goods must have to go through some amount of rationalization to justify it, even if it just comes down to cost. They will always know it's fake, so obviously they have to be okay with that which questions whether the purchase is for them or to impress other people. If it's not for others what do you gain by having Gibson on the headstock if you know yourself it's not a Gibson? Spend your money on something honest. You mention the Rolex guys and I think that is just as weird: I own an expensive watch (not a Rolex but same quality level) and it would be inconceivable to me to buy a fake version of it just to impress other people when I don't want to wear it - I would know it was fake and that's all I would need to know. Plus, the guy who wants to steal the thing doesn't know it's fake so your danger of being robbed for it is just as high and you may get hurt in the process.

 

[Biddlin]

Gibson need to look out.

Yep, no non-guitarist can tell the difference, visually or sonically. The price point at which Gibson can deliver quality instruments is the issue. Are we willing to pay more for the marginally higher standard of living in Nashville or are Guangdong wages good enough?

 

[gball]

Yep, no non-guitarist can tell the difference, visually or sonically. The price point at which Gibson can deliver quality instruments is the issue. Are we willing to pay more for the marginally higher standard of living in Nashville or are Guangdong wages good enough?

I don't think that's the issue. The problem in this case is that is is a counterfeit. Take the Gibson name and open book headstock off, sell it as what it actually is and let the market decide your question. Selling it with the Gibson name on it is dishonest, illegal, corruptible...oh, you get the idea. There are core customers that will continue to buy Gibsons at whatever price they charge and there are those that will shop only price and a well-made offshore product will appeal to them. That's fine, just don't call it something it isn't.

 

[DonP]

I don't think that's the issue. The problem in this case is that is is a counterfeit. Take the Gibson name and open book headstock off, sell it as what it actually is and let the market decide your question. Selling it with the Gibson name on it is dishonest, illegal, corruptible...oh, you get the idea. There are core customers that will continue to buy Gibsons at whatever price they charge and there are those that will shop only price and a well-made offshore product will appeal to them. That's fine, just don't call it something it isn't.

This is all true, but it is not Gibson's real problem. The fact is that this factory can produce a guitar that is almost indistinguishable from a Gibson and sell it at about one tenth the price. We have to assume that they are making some sort of profit. If this is the reality of the world right now, it is an issue that Gibson needs to address.

 

[Sérgio]

In my own understanding, the problem resides not in someone awarely buying such a guitar, like Adrian or Sp3ctre.

It's that these guitars are MEANT to deceive and fool. You guys are high level connoisseurs and know what it is and what it ain't, but that doesn't neuter the fact that this is a product of crime, near-slave work and harming of American -and Chinese, I doubt these workers make something like minimum wage- labor.

Either we see it so or not, it is an evil object and buying it DOES stimulate that cancerous network.

No, I am not amd won't point my finger at the friends who buy and like one, but I won't tell them I agree or would do the same. It may be a pleasure, but it's certainly a guilty pleasure.

 

[gball]

This is all true, but it is not Gibson's real problem. The fact is that this factory can produce a guitar that is almost indistinguishable from a Gibson and sell it at about one tenth the price. We have to assume that they are making some sort of profit. If this is the reality of the world right now, it is an issue that Gibson needs to address.

I still son't see this as a problem for Gibson. I really don't think they care about what is happening in the $200 end of the market. If someone is only shopping price then that is fine, but Gibson's core customers are going to pay for a real Gibson. I am one of them. I don't care how good these guitars are I am not going to buy a counterfeit if I want a Gibson. Not to mention the other ethical issues involved (see Sérgio's post above).

 

[DonP]

I still son't see this as a problem for Gibson. I really don't think they care about what is happening in the $200 end of the market. If someone is only shopping price then that is fine, but Gibson's core customers are going to pay for a real Gibson. I am one of them. I don't care how good these guitars are I am not going to buy a counterfeit if I want a Gibson. Not to mention the other ethical issues involved (see Sérgio's post above).

I agree that you - and probably most of us here - are not going to buy these guitars, apart maybe from academic interest. Nevertheless they do demonstrate the state of the art in manufacturing, and that can't be ignored. A few extra dollars on premium electronics and they will be quality products.

 

[Biddlin]

Fakes don't bother this guy:

I believe one of these Kris Deerig "fakes" just sold for six figures.

 

[gball]

Fakes don't bother this guy:

I believe one of these Kris Deerig "fakes" just sold for six figures.

Kind of tough to compare a hand-made copy built by a skilled luthier and $200 asian-made knock-offs. I don't think either should carry the Gibson logo.

 

[DonP]

Kind of tough to compare a hand-made copy built by a skilled luthier and $200 asian-made knock-offs. I don't think either should carry the Gibson logo.

Here's the problem. It takes an extremely skilled luthier to make a guitar as well as a well-run automatic CNC production system. Hand-made is not a guarantee of quality. More often it is a mess of niggly problems.

 

[Sérgio]

Fakes don't bother this guy:

I believe one of these Kris Deerig "fakes" just sold for six figures.

Not the same thing, at all. Derrig was a top notch luthier who made outstanding guitars, sometimes better than the average non custom Gibson... So that Gibson made a reissue... of one of his guitars.

It doesn't change the fact that his "Gibsons" are still what we could classify as fakes due to the name he put on the headstock, but still, no exploitation, no slave work, no mass production and still AFAIK he never made these guitars to sell as legit Gibsons, all his customers knew what they were ordering...

 

[DonP]

Not the same thing, at all. Derrig was a top notch luthier who made outstanding guitars, sometimes better than the average non custom Gibson... So that Gibson made a reissue... of one of his guitars.

It doesn't change the fact that his "Gibsons" are still what we could classify as fakes due to the name he put on the headstock, but still, no exploitation, no slave work, no mass production and still AFAIK he never made these guitars to sell as legit Gibsons, all his customers knew what they were ordering...

As do the customers of the $300 Chinese suppliers. I see no difference here apart from that of the price. The Chinese are, if anything, approaching the thing with rather greater honesty. They know what their guitar is worth and they sell it at that price.

 

[Tony M.]

Cut and paste from an old post:

The fakes are getting better and better.
Sooner or later there will be fakes that play, look
and sound as good as the real thing.

"A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

Uhoh........

Another thing.
Our fellow ETSG member Lou and several others here are totally capable,
if they chose to do so, of building a "fake" Gibson and actually putting
Gibson's name on it. If said guitar came out of Lou's shop, for example,
it would be superior to the real thing in every way. It's still a fake. It did
not come out of the Gibson factory.

However....

If Lou takes his tools and his wood blanks and builds that exact same
Guitar inside the Gibson factory, is it still a fake or has it now become a
genuine hand made Gibson Custom Shop instrument? If he is actually
contracted by gibson to make a one of a kind is it a Gibson or is it a fake
Gibson that is in reality a Moritz with a Gibson logo on the headstock?

Now what?


(I use Lou as an example because we have all seen step by steps of his
TI 001 guitar build and know that he is capable of "outgibsoning" Gibson.
I apologize to you Lou in advance if I have overstepped by doing so.)

 

[Biddlin]

Kind of tough to compare a hand-made copy built by a skilled luthier and $200 asian-made knock-offs.

Hand-made is not a guarantee of quality. More often it is a mess of niggly problems.

I don't think the comparison is a problem at all. The $200 knock off has cheaper parts and the maker made $1.48/hour. Some of them are skilled artisans.
Gibson uses mostly USA made parts, pricey. Gibson Nashville workers average around $16.25/hr or about 11 times the foreign labor cost . Most are very skilled, others are destined for management.

$200

$2500
Labor costs are a big deal.
I have no clue what Kris charged Slash for his.

 

[DonP]

I don't think the comparison is a problem at all. The $200 knock off has cheaper parts and the maker made $1.48/hour. Some of them are skilled artisans.
Gibson uses mostly USA made parts, pricey. Gibson Nashville workers average around $16.25/hr or about 11 times the foreign labor cost . Most are very skilled, others are destined for management.

$200

$2500
Labor costs are a big deal.

They are a big deal. That's why you either manufacture where labour is cheap, or you take the labour cost out of the picture with serious automation. If you use labour-intensive processes and carry them out in an expensive region, you are a mug.

 

[Sérgio]

As do the customers of the $300 Chinese suppliers. I see no difference here apart from that of the price. The Chinese are, if anything, approaching the thing with rather greater honesty.
They know what their guitar is worth and they sell it at that price.

So you are assuming Derrig's guitars are in any way inferior in quality to Gibsons of that time.

And nothing I said about labor and mass production forgery matters in the equation.

Ok.