Accidental Peter Green Modification Unmasked - Calling Gahr!!!!

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We have been discussing this in another thread. I recently switch pickups around in my 2016 Gibson S-G. I am using a brand new Gibson 57 Classic + in the bridge (9.02kΩ) and a new Gibson Burstbucker Pro in the neck, which measured around 8.4kΩ. Both were bought with nickel covers and both are correctly orientated.

Rob's S-G.jpg

The guitar has 50's style wiring, 500kΩ Bourn pots, K40Y Capcitors - a .033uf on the bridge and a .015uf on the neck - and full copper shielding. Both pickups were ordered with my preference of old-style, two conductor wiring as shown here:

SG 2 Conductors with Shileding.jpg

Ok, so when I was running both Burstbucker Pro's, I never noticed any volume drop in the middle position or any kind of hollowness or 'honk' in that position. Naturally, I seldom - if ever - play anything clean in this genre, but I think I would have heard it.

So, recently, I pulled the bridge Burstbucker in favor of a 57 Classic +.

57 Classic Plus Bridge.jpg

After the install, I balanced the pickups by ear and then measured their height. The bridge pole pieces are set to 4/32" from the strings and the neck is 8/32" from the strings - measured when fretted at the last fret on both bass and treble side.

So, no real departure from my usual setup style. No way to reverse the wiring with a two conductor. Never took the pickups apart to swap magnets.

What I immediately noticed was the guitar became almost 'energized' in the middle position, in that the strings became 'hyper-sensitive' to touch with no discernible loss in volume with high gain levels. The tone has a somewhat 'honky' quality to it and even mild pick attack produces a dramatic harmonic effect.

Gahr was kind enough to demo his Les Paul - with Peter Green modification - in a recent You Tube video. For purposes of clarity, I made a short sound recording this morning - with my Blackstar studio workhorse set to clean - and I was surprised by what I heard.

There is a distinct loss of output in the middle position when played clean - that is unnoticeable - when played at high gain levels.

Here is the clip. You will hear me switching through pickups in this order - Bridge, Middle & Neck. I tried to make the changes very obvious and showcase the tone.

Strange Middle Pickup Tone on Gibson SG With Lower Output

What are your thoughts as to how this happened???
 
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Wow... very sweet tones. The middle position definitely sounds like a magnet flip on one of the pups. To confirm this, if you have a compass, place the compass along the edge of the pup's adjustable pole screw side. The needle to the compass will either point to the pole screws or do a 180° away from it.
 
The pickups are out of phase and producing nearly identical output levels.
Wow... very sweet tones. The middle position definitely sounds like a magnet flip on one of the pups. To confirm this, if you have a compass, place the compass along the edge of the pup's adjustable pole screw side. The needle to the compass will either point to the pole screws or do a 180° away from it.

We know it cannot be the wiring, since with a two conductor, reversing the polarity would energize the ground braid, so one must have had a magnet flip - accidentally - from the factory????
 
We know it cannot be the wiring, since with a two conductor, reversing the polarity would energize the ground braid, so one must have had a magnet flip - accidentally - from the factory????
Maybe... :hmmm:

As far as I know, Gibson doesn’t offer any reverse polarity pups.
 
Like DonP is saying, that is clearly the sound of out of phase pickups. Since it is not the wiring, it must be the pickups.

Flipping one of the magnets would «fix» the «problem», but personally I’d leave it as is.:D But if you decide to correct it, at least you should take the time to play around with the sou d a bit first. By adjusting the respective pickup volumes up and down you can get some very interesting blends. While this may not be as useful with your regular high gain settings, it can yield some lovely results. Personally, my favorite middle position setting is with the neck volume on 8 and the bridge on 5-6. The. The neck pickup dominates skightly, giving you a fuller sound than when the vilumes on the pups are equal.

By the way, if you play loudly, the volume drop is less noticeable.
 
Like DonP is saying, that is clearly the sound of out of phase pickups. Since it is not the wiring, it must be the pickups.

Flipping one of the magnets would «fix» the «problem», but personally I’d leave it as is.:D But if you decide to correct it, at least you should take the time to play around with the sou d a bit first. By adjusting the respective pickup volumes up and down you can get some very interesting blends. While this may not be as useful with your regular high gain settings, it can yield some lovely results. Personally, my favorite middle position setting is with the neck volume on 8 and the bridge on 5-6. The. The neck pickup dominates skightly, giving you a fuller sound than when the vilumes on the pups are equal.

By the way, if you play loudly, the volume drop is less noticeable.

I have no intention of changing anything!!! LOL!!!! Just trying to figure out what happened. So, this would not be a 'horizontal flip' (like a pancake) but rather a 'clockwise rotation' of the magnets????

Overdriven leads just sing....it's unreal... :)
 
I have no intention of changing anything!!! LOL!!!! Just trying to figure out what happened. So, this would not be a 'horizontal flip' (like a pancake) but rather a 'clockwise rotation' of the magnets????

Overdriven leads just sing....it's unreal... :)
Regarding the flip, I think you just need to make sure the north and south of the magnet are swiched around. It doesn't matter which side is up, really.
 
Theories, Doctor Don????
When the output levels are the same, the out of phase effects at its strongest. That's when the sound will be at the thinnest, because the maximum amount of sound is cancelled out. As soon as you turn the level up or down on one of the pickups, the loudest one will dominate, and the cancellation will be less noticeable. Manipulating the pickup levels is really the key to getting the full variety of sounds from out of phase pickups. That's why the four-control Gibson guitars are great for this kind of effect.

You asked me to post my video again in this thread, so here it is. I switch to the middle position at around the 2:00 mark.
 
Here are two great videos showcasing the same pickups I have in my Goldtop, demoed by blues guitar master Kid Andersen. For those of you who don't know Kid, he's a Norwegian guitarist living in San Jose. He is quite simply one hell of a guitar player. Video 2 is concentrating on the out of phase middle position.


 
When the output levels are the same, the out of phase effects at its strongest. That's when the sound will be at the thinnest, because the maximum amount of sound is cancelled out. As soon as you turn the level up or down on one of the pickups, the loudest one will dominate, and the cancellation will be less noticeable. Manipulating the pickup levels is really the key to getting the full variety of sounds from out of phase pickups. That's why the four-control Gibson guitars are great for this kind of effect.

You asked me to post my video again in this thread, so here it is. I switch to the middle position at around the 2:00 mark.
Gahr, I was expecting more of an accent on you. You sound like some of the people in my neighborhood!
 
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