To Attenuate or Use Volume Pedal In Loop?

Inspector #20

Inspector #20

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Hey, all you distinguished TTR members, and all manner of musical degenerates...got a question

So I'm in the process of ordering a Weber 100 Mas Attenuator...trying to decide on whether or not to pop for the footswitch and headphone jack options, when I get into a discussion about recording with a colleague.

During this discussion, we talked about attenuators in general and what I was trying to achieve.

He suggested - as a few of you have - to use a low impedance volume pedal in the effects loop. However, his suggestion was to actually use it in place of an attenuator.

He suggested that I could basically run the amp wide open and drop the volume with the pedal.

So, this does make sense...if the tubes are still getting hammered.

Looking for some honest input. I got no issues with the price of the attenuator, I just don't want to buy something and have it sit around and collect dust.

Now from what i have read, with the attentuator working, the volume gets knocked down after the power tubes. With the volume pedal in the loop, you're going to knock it down before the power tubes.

Thoughts???
 
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Pointless in a master volume amp. You wouldn’t be running anything “wide open” because you would still be limiting the signal hitting the power amp so it still wouldn’t distort, plus you’d add noise unneccesarily.

If I understand what you are trying to do corectly (get power tube distortion at lower volume) then there are two easy ways: use a lower power amp (that’s what I do) or use an attenuator.
 
Robert Herndon said:
Now from what i have read, with the attentuator working, the volume gets knocked down after the power tubes. With the volume pedal in the loop, you're going to knock it down before the power tubes.
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And the phase inverter preamp tube also.

Robert Herndon said:
... I'm in the process of ordering a Weber 100 Mas Attenuator...trying to decide on whether or not to pop for the footswitch and headphone jack options...
Click to expand...
Might as well... I would... (y)
 
gball said:
Pointless in a master volume amp. You wouldn’t be running anything “wide open” because you would still be limiting the signal hitting the power amp so it still wouldn’t distort, plus you’d add noise unneccesarily.

If I understand what you are trying to do corectly (get power tube distortion at lower volume) then there are two easy ways: use a lower power amp (that’s what I do) or use an attenuator.
Click to expand...

Ok. You answered my question perfectly. I'm actually interested in trying the attenuator with my DSL40C switched to 20 watt and pegged!!!
 
No personal experience with any of the Weber attentuators, but the Weber Mass 100 is described as full attenuation under 60 watts and slight attenuation at 100 watts. Robert should be able to operate his DSL at the full 40 watts and still be able to fully attenuate. Either way, Robert should be able to reduce quite a bit of volume for his rehearsals.
 
syscokid said:
No personal experience with any of the Weber attentuators, but the Weber Mass 100 is described as full attenuation under 60 watts and slight attenuation at 100 watts. Robert should be able to operate his DSL at the full 40 watts and still be able to fully attenuate. Either way, Robert should be able to reduce quite a bit of volume for his rehearsals.
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The only one I tried (not mine, a friends) was still pretty damn loud with the amp fully dimed. May not have been the same model though, so I may be talking out of turn, as I can't remember it specifically.
 
Thank you both for the input on this. Things are judt going so good, Man...the Gold Lion T12AX7 V1 tubr mafe a difference I could hear...the Doublneck - despite the fact that its like having a 900 pound pet Grizzly Bear in terms of impracticality - it sounds great and has the most endearing qualities....its like all the tone chasing has started to pay off....maybe due to a more scientific and/or analytical approach....and a lot of helpful insight from the TTR family of musical misfits.... :-)
 
syscokid said:
No personal experience with any of the Weber attentuators, but the Weber Mass 100 is described as full attenuation under 60 watts and slight attenuation at 100 watts. Robert should be able to operate his DSL at the full 40 watts and still be able to fully attenuate. Either way, Robert should be able to reduce quite a bit of volume for his rehearsals.
Click to expand...

I think you are correct, Sysco. I told C.J. Sutton at Weber what I had and asked him to recommend the best unit for the job - he responded with the 100watt Mass Lite.
 
I use a volume pedal constantly. I have mine in the effects loop. I use it mostly to mute my guitar between songs or I use it for swells. I've never bothered doing swells with the volume knob on the guitar. I think a volume pedal provides more control.

To establish a globally quieter baseline for a loud amp, I'd probably opt for a good attenuator.
 
smitty_p said:
I use a volume pedal constantly. I have mine in the effects loop. I use it mostly to mute my guitar between songs or I use it for swells. I've never bothered doing swells with the volume knob on the guitar. I think a volume pedal provides more control.

To establish a globally quieter baseline for a loud amp, I'd probably opt for a good attenuator.
Click to expand...

That's the route I'm going now...
 
Bought 2 spare sets of tubes for my DSL40C, just in case I need to feed the attenuator:

V1 = Genelex Gold Lion T12AX7

V2 = TAD 7025 WA

V3 = TAD 7025 WA

V4 = TAD 7025 WA

Power Tubes: Matched Pair of Genelex Gold Lion KT-77's

At least I don't have to worry about the custom made 50 Watt WGS Reaper 55Hz. I think it can take whatever I can dish out!!!

Reaper in DSL40C.jpg

@Thatbastarddon - The 50 watt custom Reaper 55Hz comes with a standard 30 watt decal (Trevor English advised me of this when he built it) and the amp is shown incorrectly plugged into the 8Ω speaker output.... :-)


Thanks for your order
Here are the details for your order #35803, placed on Mon, 12/11/2017 - 3:51pm


Product Price Quantity Total
12" Reaper HP - 50 watts - 55Hz cone option

Impedance:

16 ohm

Notes: Heavy magnet

$89.99 1 $89.99
Subtotal $89.99
UPS Ground $21.33
Order total $111.32
 
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Robert Herndon said:
Bought 2 spare sets of tubes for my DSL40C, just in case I need to feed the attenuator:

V1 = Genelex Gold Lion T12AX7

V2 = TAD 7025 WA

V3 = TAD 7025 WA

V4 = TAD 7025 WA

Power Tubes: Matched Pair of Genelex Gold Lion KT-77's

At least I don't have to worry about the custom made 50 Watt WGS Reaper 55Hz. I think it can take whatever I can dish out!!!

View attachment 10971

@Thatbastarddon - The 50 watt custom Reaper 55Hz comes with a standard 30 watt decal (Trevor English advised me of this when he built it) and the amp is shown incorrectly plugged into the 8Ω speaker output.... :)


Thanks for your order
Here are the details for your order #35803, placed on Mon, 12/11/2017 - 3:51pm


Product Price Quantity Total
12" Reaper HP - 50 watts - 55Hz cone option

Impedance:

16 ohm

Notes: Heavy magnet

$89.99 1 $89.99
Subtotal $89.99
UPS Ground $21.33
Order total $111.32
Click to expand...


What? No retainers for your preamp tubes either? They’re gonna rattle out with that custom bass driver in there....;)
The choice of the 8Ω output to the 16Ω speaker is usually considered a safe mismatch.
Get a sharpie and fix those spec's on the sticker:wink:
 
Thatbastarddon said:
What? No retainers for your preamp tubes either? They’re gonna rattle out with that custom bass driver in there....;)
The choice of the 8Ω output to the 16Ω speaker is usually considered a safe mismatch.
Get a sharpie and fix those spec's on the sticker:wink:
Click to expand...

The EL-34'S have retainers...might be something to look into!!! You have a source??? Any drilling required???

It really would be cooler to have the right decal. It also bugs me that its clocked wrong, but the length of speaker cable limits that...
 
Thatbastarddon said:
Oh yeah, are KT-77s stock on those? I thought the were straight up EL-34s.
You definitely should bias those upon installation.
Click to expand...

Stock is JJ EL-34's with Marshall script. I have a new matched psir of Electro-Harmonix EL-34'S in there now. The KT-77's are just a tonal upgrade. I'm diggin' the Gold Lion Soviet Tubes.

I understand from Adrian that they are forged by Russian Tone Elves in the Black Forrest, right across the lane from the hollow tree where the Grunion makes the K40Y PIO tone beans.

Bias..38 to 40???
 
Those Gold Lions have a higher plate dissipation at 32watts(over the standard 25), so the math works out a little different. You can safely use 25, but you may not like the outcome...your tubes will last longer though.
The final bias numbers depend on your amplifiers actual plate voltage, and the plate dissipation voltage of the tubes used. So it may vary slightly from amp to amp due to component drift/variance...

Oh, heck....you can read....I know you can.

Eurotubes Bias Probe Instructions
 
Thatbastarddon said:
Those Gold Lions have a higher plate dissipation at 32watts(over the standard 25), so the math works out a little different. You can safely use 25, but you may not like the outcome...your tubes will last longer though.
The final bias numbers depend on your amplifiers actual plate voltage, and the plate dissipation voltage of the tubes used. So it may vary slightly from amp to amp due to component drift/variance...

Oh, heck....you can read....I know you can.

Eurotubes Bias Probe Instructions
Click to expand...

I can read simple words and phrases....I'm digging for this article!!!
 
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