Bye, Bye Gibson.

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gball said:
See, that's just it. I've read a lot of anecdotal, individual experiences where people have had issues. Fine, not saying you didn't, but what I am saying is that for every person that I have heard with a complaint I am pretty sure Gibson has sold a thousand or more without one. Nope, I don't have anything more to go on than having been diddling with guitars and hanging out with guitar players for the last 41 years, but I know many, many more people that have what they characterize as "perfect out of the box" Gibsons (myself included) and read many, many more NGD posts stating same than I know or read of people claiming Gibson is "failing" in the QC department. Hell I was just at Sam Ash earlier today picking up strings and took a look at the 2018's they had and every one I picked up was flawless. Yeah, sometimes something wrong makes it through - they are a high volume manufacturer of a product that has an unusual amount of hand finishing for this era - but they stand behind their products and will make it right if given a chance, not to mention the return policies of the various dealers. No manufacturer bats 1000 in that department otherwise you wouldn't require a warranty for anything you buy. What I see more often than not is people who don't go through the warranty or return process claiming Gibson has a sweeping problem in the QC department that become very vocal on the internet about their personal, isolated experience.

I've said it before: I believe Gibson is building the highest quality, most consistent guitars in their history. Those fables '50's and '60's guitars? All over the place. No two are alike and not one of them is perfect because there was even more individual hand-building in a volume manufacturing setting, with work being done by factory assembly workers. Yet they are the grails? It's not like Gibson was some tiny, individual luthier in 1958 - they were a large manufacturing operation cranking out product, just as today, and equally prone to problems if not moreso.
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Good points, as always...

I guess I had a real run of bad luck. I bought three new Gibson's - a 2003 SG - a 2016 SG and a 2017 Gold Top - so I based my opinion on that. What frustrated me - and I can share the emails I sent to Gibson - is that every email contained almost exactly the same complaints - and I found You Tube videos that chronicled my issues exactly, so I assumed my experiences were more than just me - one individual.

In the case of my 2016 Gibson SG - I corrected the issues and it plays well, but I had to invest another $400/$500 to get it up to the playability/quietness of a $250 Agile. I must admit, I know I upset people here harping on it, but it made me so damn mad that when I found myself stuck with a guitar that I didn't like, I was beside myself with furious rage.

In the end, these three Gibson's pushed me to build my own line of guitars, all 25 of them, pushed me to complete the double neck project and in the process, I learned a lot about guitars - more than I knew when i joined this forum - and I have you - and other TTR members - to thank for that.

I will tell you that the experience made me gun-shy when it comes to Gibson's...

Now, I must say, that I have played new EDS-1275's and giving Gibson their due respect, my guitar exceeds the 2017 EDS-1275 in every respect...but I suppose that's expected, considering mine was made by a hand by a single Luthier and to my exact specifications.

To be honest, the EDS-1275 is the only thing that really moves me.

In our local Guitar Sinner, which I know is only one store, the problems with the top shelf Gibson's is astounding. I have played every one of them at one time or another. It actually makes me sad, because I was raised with the belief that Gibson was the "professional's choice" and I'm disappointed that I had to resort to having guitars custom made, just to get a quality instrument.

However, I am happy that you guys haven't gone through what I did. It really bummed me out....
 
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Yeah I've spent a lot of money getting my Gibson SGs up to spec and to be honest I play my Epiphone Explorer three times more than all of my Gibsons put together

I mean, I spent a lot of money on that too but it was worth it

Whichever way you look at it people never pay you for upgrades when you sell guitars
 
Stepping back and taking a breath, I think we can all put aside any immediate expectations that Gibson is going away. The lawyers on the forum can offer more professional insight, but bankruptcy does not necessarily mean a business goes out of existence. Often, the company will file for Chapter 11 protections. During this time, the company continues operations and sets about restructuring to satisfy debt and get itself back on its feet. This process has some degree of court oversight.

However, a real concern is if the main business is sound. According to a senior credit officer from Moody's Investor's Service quoted in this Nashville Post article, the core business at Gibson is stable and sustainable.

https://www.nashvillepost.com/busin...e/20992105/gibson-running-out-of-time-rapidly

Gibson lovers don't need to start mourning, yet. And Gibson haters shouldn't start celebrating, yet.
 
Col Mustard said:
It's more amusing to me then, to hear US players bad mouthing Gibson as if they were
the bottom of the barrel, just read Sir Robert's comments on this thread, or any thread.
He's been consistently bashing Gibson on anybody's post, and telling the world over and over
what a bad time he's had.
Never a good word, unless its for the guitars of the past. He won't miss Gibson if they sink...
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Must have missed the part of my post where I wrote that I was happy, even grateful, that so many of you didn't have the experiences that befell me with 3 brand new Gibson's... :-)
 
smitty_p said:
Stepping back and taking a breath, I think we can all put aside any immediate expectations that Gibson is going away. The lawyers on the forum can offer more professional insight, but bankruptcy does not necessarily mean a business goes out of existence. Often, the company will file for Chapter 11 protections. During this time, the company continues operations and sets about restructuring to satisfy debt and get itself back on its feet. This process has some degree of court oversight.

However, a real concern is if the main business is sound. According to a senior credit officer from Moody's Investor's Service quoted in this Nashville Post article, the core business at Gibson is stable and sustainable.

https://www.nashvillepost.com/busin...e/20992105/gibson-running-out-of-time-rapidly

Gibson lovers don't need to start mourning, yet. And Gibson haters shouldn't start celebrating, yet.
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Good observations, Smitty, on the requisite protections afforded by filing bankruptcy. You are correct that it does not always spell the end of a company - or a municipality for that matter.

I would not celebrate Gibson's demise. On the contrary, I hope they get it together and prosper.
 
I don't believe there any Gibson haters here in this forum, but lets face it in reality Gibson has some very serious Quality control issues. Robert went through some terrible issues with the Gibson and from what I gather, from going on the internet this morning he's far from being the only one. I watched a YouTube video this morning this guy ordered in 2015 had 4 Gibson Les Paul Jrs over one month span had to send three of them back because of low quality, He goes in depth to show the problems. Coming now into Oct of 2017. A fellow ordered a left handed guitar only to find out as he dissembles the guitar to show us it had right handed pods that was stamped on the pod. The holes for the controls were drilled out I don't know what with was terrible and even though you wont see the holes when the control knobs are on it was sub standard work, the guy couldn't believe it , he was very disappointed seeing this. Another Gibson fan says he has had enough he's tired of broken switches, scratchy pots, finishing flaws, this was on a Gibson SG also in 2017. The Col mentioned if Gibson closes and moves to a third World Country Indonesia putting the workers in America out of work, It will be the last Gibson he buys. My reply to this is I had a Squire Affinity Strat that was made in Indonesia and it was a well made guitar for $200. From what I am seeing and hearing Gibson might be better off having them made there. The Gibson employees should be ashamed of putting out this kind of inexcusable work. Yes you can blame some issues on Management, at the end of the day it comes down to the workers. One guy said watch the Factory tour the workers look lethargic. In this day and age Consumers want good value for the price they demand it. If I received a guitar from any Manufacturer with some of the issues that I have seen Gibson have I definitely would not buy another guitar from that company especially the prices Gibson charges . One person said they don't reject wood because of visual flaws, its down to the buyer to chose. Its plain to see from the videos and testimonials Gibson has very deep problems.
 
67plexi said:
Since the crash of 2008 my property taxes have doubled My income sure has not it's been stagnant flat line. The schools in my town are 1/2 full but the teachers want more money.
The local music store only sells China product now and it's not selling. As far as Gibson goes the top of the line Les Paul Standards look nice but the price ???

https://wildwoodguitars.com/product...p/wildwood-spec-tom-murphy-les-paul-standard/
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Crash of 2008 -wow - that kicked my ass too.

I bought my first home in May of 2008 for $286,000. Brand new construction. I had been making $80/$90k/year since 2005 with overtime. Along about October 2008, the State suspended all overtime enforcement details and my salary was cut almost in half.

I lost that house in November of 2011. Wells Fargo would not reduce the payment.

It was gorgeous when I handed over the keys. No tracks in the carpet...perfect yards...just like a new home.

It sold at auction in February 2012 for $101,000.

The manager I was working with at Wells Fargo finally leveled with me one day and all our conversations were recorded and transcribed over a 14 month period. I will never forget her words because it spelled the end for our home:

"Look, I'm going to be brutally honest here. The bank isn't going to refinance you. The bank profits from a foreclosure. We don't profit from loan modifications. When the house sits vacant and the yards die, that's a depreciation write-off. Then we incur loss from renovating it, which is a write off, then we often rent them through partner rental management firms until the market recovers, then sell them at a profit. I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but that's how it works..."
 
gball said:
... jingoistic...
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Ha ha... I didn't believe it was a real word:
jin·go·is·tic
ˈˌjiNGɡōˈistik/
adjective
derogatory
adjective: jingoistic
  1. characterized by extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.
    "jingoistic propaganda"
Robert Herndon said:
"Look, I'm going to be brutally honest here. The bank.......
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Wow... :facepalm:
 
Wow! Robert I Feel for you and others this has happened to. At the time this would be devastating to you and your family, very sorry to hear about this. I hope you and your family are getting along better now these days. I could not imagine the loss of losing my home, But from knowing you here on the forum, I know you are the type of guy who would not look back and press on. Keep making those fat neck guitars!:guitarking:
 
Robert Herndon said:
Crash of 2008 -wow - that kicked my ass too.

I bought my first home in May of 2008 for $286,000. Brand new construction. I had been making $80/$90k/year since 2005 with overtime. Along about October 2008, the State suspended all overtime enforcement details and my salary was cut almost in half.

I lost that house in November of 2011. Wells Fargo would not reduce the payment.

It was gorgeous when I handed over the keys. No tracks in the carpet...perfect yards...just like a new home.

It sold at auction in February 2012 for $101,000.

The manager I was working with at Wells Fargo finally leveled with me one day and all our conversations were recorded and transcribed over a 14 month period. I will never forget her words because it spelled the end for our home:

"Look, I'm going to be brutally honest here. The bank isn't going to refinance you. The bank profits from a foreclosure. We don't profit from loan modifications. When the house sits vacant and the yards die, that's a depreciation write-off. Then we incur loss from renovating it, which is a write off, then we often rent them through partner rental management firms until the market recovers, then sell them at a profit. I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but that's how it works..."
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Wow Robert, that's tough. My wife and I came very close to losing our home during the crash, and frankly it's a miracle we managed to hold onto it. We ultimately did end up selling the house but I feel your pain on some level - we were at the point that I was modifying my route to work to use less gas because I couldn't afford more than one tank every two weeks.
 
67plexi said:
Since the crash of 2008 my property taxes have doubled My income sure has not it's been stagnant flat line. The schools in my town are 1/2 full but the teachers want more money.
The local music store only sells China product now and it's not selling. As far as Gibson goes the top of the line Les Paul Standards look nice but the price ???

https://wildwoodguitars.com/product...p/wildwood-spec-tom-murphy-les-paul-standard/
Click to expand...

To be fair though, those are Wildwood Spec Murphy Standards. Just having the guy look at a guitar apparently adds $1000 to the asking price at Wildwood. Not knocking Wildwood by the way, I've bought a few guitars from them and they are great folks to deal with, but they get pretty silly with the prices on some of the Wildwood Spec guitars.

The "regular" custom shop Standards are significantly less:
https://wildwoodguitars.com/product...-modern-les-paul-standard-gloss/?cat_id=21800

And the USA Standards, which I personally feel are just as good, are less still:
https://wildwoodguitars.com/product/180009226/2018-les-paul-standard-6/?cat_id=284
 
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I also feel your pain Robert. I moved out here to California in 2006 and paid $500K for a brand new build. By 2010 it was worth about $195K. I also lost that house and about
$200K of equity I had in it. The good news for me was that in California at the time you were completely forgiven of the remaining loan balance after the foreclosure.

I had to rent for a few years and build back up from my losses, but I was finally able to buy another house at less than half what it cost new. It would have been better
if the bank had come in and lowered the value of the houses, but all the government did was pay off the banks and no one I know was helped in any way to refi after the crash...

...and as for Gibson, I have also bought some seriously sub standard guitars from them in the last 3 years. I mean the quality control was just terrible. And what do I see now?
Increased prices on every line and still sub standard product. The cleanest most well finished guitar I have bought in the last year is a Squier VM Stratocaster for all of $300.
A proper set of electronics brought the cost to $600, but it is a flawless build otherwise...
 
67plexi said:
I know for a fact the the mark up on all Gibson guitars is 100% so the dealer price is not $11k it's $5.5k Gibson has dealer bylaws that if you post photos of a guitar for sale on the internet
it has to be full retail price.
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100% is standard retail markup for virtually all consumer goods. Gibson is in no way unique there. The issue here is that Wildwood has enough clout to do these "Wildwood Spec" limited runs and set the price with Gibson, and my guess is the prices you see on the Wildwood site are marked up significantly more than that 100%. They know full well they are not going to actually be selling the guitars for anywhere near the listed price so they jack them way up for the list then do the discount and retain the full markup retail price. Good business really, as Wildwood has proven over time that they have absolutely no problem moving these special runs.
 
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