Flat Topped Frets Creating Intonation Aomanlies??

Inspector #20

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As many of you know, I been searching for a good Gibson for quite a while now. One thing my ear picks up are intonation anomalies. Recently, I began to notice an anomaly on many Gibson's I was playing where barre chords, all the way up to the 10th and 12th fret, would sound out of tune. On some guitars, the intonation was off, and the store tech was always happy to make an adjustment. However, on many of these guitars, the open/barred notes would be out of tune with each other. I verified this by playing with a tuner and watching the pitch of the notes. I also noticed that the open and fretted pitch of the individual strings were also affected.

It was at this time that I noticed a distinct, flat topped profile to the frets.

Now, we know fret placement is a tonal and mathematical equation. SA flat profile will shift the intonation point away from the center of the fret and result in an out of pitch condition. If you play only open chords, you can compensate and adjust to pitch. However, once you barre a chord, it's out again.

Anyone else notice this???
 
As many of you know, I been searching for a good Gibson for quite a while now. One thing my ear picks up are intonation anomalies. Recently, I began to notice an anomaly on many Gibson's I was playing where barre chords, all the way up to the 10th and 12th fret, would sound out of tune. On some guitars, the intonation was off, and the store tech was always happy to make an adjustment. However, on many of these guitars, the open/barred notes would be out of tune with each other. I verified this by playing with a tuner and watching the pitch of the notes. I also noticed that the open and fretted pitch of the individual strings were also affected.

It was at this time that I noticed a distinct, flat topped profile to the frets.

Now, we know fret placement is a tonal and mathematical equation. SA flat profile will shift the intonation point away from the center of the fret and result in an out of pitch condition. If you play only open chords, you can compensate and adjust to pitch. However, once you barre a chord, it's out again.

Anyone else notice this???
I think any effect of the shape of the top if the fret would be minute. I think the issue to which you refer is one of "temperament". I know little on this, so here is a start via a quick internet search

Tuning The Guitar
 
I think any effect of the shape of the top if the fret would be minute. I think the issue to which you refer is one of "temperament". I know little on this, so here is a start via a quick internet search

Tuning The Guitar

Excerpt from RVA's link:

INTONATION

Intonating most electric guitars is so simple that every guitarist with access to an electronic tuner should be able to do it himself. And since intonation is also affected by one's individual playing style - how hard one presses down the strings, for example - it makes sense that a guitar should be intonated by the person who is going to play it.

The nut, truss rod and action height should be adjusted to taste before you start intonating, otherwise you may as well not bother. It is also a waste of time (except in an emergency situation) to try to intonate with worn strings. For best results, restring and adjust the instrument, and then wait 24 hours to let the strings settle before fine-adjusting the intonation. (By all means give it another check and final adjustment 24 hours after that, too.) For most guitars you will only need a new set of strings, a screwdriver or key of the correct size for the bridge saddles' length adjusting screws, a good electronic tuner, and patience. Don't attempt to adjust your intonation by ear (unless you have perfect pitch) you'll only drive yourself crazy!



The goal of intonation is to adjust the length of each string individually until it plays pure octaves between the open string and the twelfth fret, between the first fret and the 13th fret, the 2nd and the 14th, and so on, as closely as possible. Start by tuning all six strings with the tuner (and keep checking the overall tuning throughout the procedure). The guitar should be held in playing position - the tuning will be noticeably affected by gravity, among other things, if the guitar is laid on its back.

Using the tuner, first compare the open string note to the note at the twelfth fret. The tuner should give exactly the same reading. If not, and the twelfth fret note is flat compared to the open note, the string length is slightly "too long", and the bridge saddle must be moved towards the neck. Conversely, if the twelfth fret note is sharp to the open note, the string is "too short", and the saddle must be moved away from the neck. Adjust the saddle, retune the open string and compare again. Repeat the procedure until the two notes agree. Do the same for the remaining strings.

Adding length to the string at the bridge end to correct the intonation at the 12th fret has an unfortunate side-effect, in that this also lengthens the distance from the higher frets to the bridge, which can throw the intonation off at the top end of the range.

To check for this, compare the 5th fret with the 17th fret, and the 7th fret with the 19th fret. If there is a problem, it may be necessary to compromise the 12th fret a tad to get acceptable intonation in the high register. If the guitar is seldom played above the 10th fret, though, it's obviously better to optimise the low end instead.

All the strings will end up slightly longer than the theoretical scale length, which is the distance from the nut to the twelfth fret x 2. The thicker the string, the more its tension increases when fretted. The lower strings therefore need more "compensation", as this small increase in length is called. A plain string needs more compensation than a wound string of the same diameter, so, in most cases, the high E string will be shortest, the B string a little longer, a plain G a little longer still, the D string a little shorter than the G, the A string a little longer than the D, and the low E longest of all.



Heavy gauge strings need less overall compensation than lighter gauges. This is because they are already at a higher tension than lighter gauges, and thus the percentage of tension added by fretting the strings is relatively less than for lighter gauges.
 
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Well FWIW, I just had a look to compare the frets on my four guitars, all with minimal fret wear. Two Gibson's, a 2013 60's tribute SG (a budget model), a 2012 Les Paul traditional, one Fender, a 2012 Select Strat & a Jackson, 2014 Pro Soloist. . Which one had the flattest topped flat topped frets? The Fender. Now remember that the select was the top of the range, the next step up was custom shop. The Jackson's frets are the best. The (both) Gibson's frets are noticeably not as flat on top as the strat's. I use a Planet Waves tru strobe tuner, accurate to +/- 0.1 of a cent. The guitars are properly intonated. The thing is, a guitar is not a perfect temperament instrument. That's the long & short of it. Exotic compensated nuts, fanned or weird shaped exotic frets etc have been thrown at guitars but why. Plenty of perfectly good music has been made with less than perfection in instruments. Like the 3 saddle telecasters. Good enough for Roy Buchanan, good enough for me. Cheers
Edit; I must say though, even the Fender's frets are nowhere near as flat topped as the diagram shown in post 5 of the link Robert posted. Not even close to. Cheers
 
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This may help explain what I am hearing....Diagram appears in post #5 showing intonation error of a flat topped fret:

Gibson and Flat Top Frets. WHY!?! | Harmony Central

An interesting triangle shaped fret to assure accurate intonation:

Petillo Guitars • Frets

I'm going to say this is yet another solution to a non-existent problem. And errors caused by the shape of the top of a fret are more than swamped by variations in finger pressure. I'm pretty damned sure I don't fret as powerfully with an extended pinky as I do with my middle finger. Everything still sounds fine, though.
 
I tried some 9-42 guage strings on one of my guitars and you really got to be carefull about how much presure you use on those 9s. Even when my Peterson Strobe tuner says my intonation is perfect i have to put my own tweeks on it from what my ears hear and my playing style. Ill use the song My Generation from the WHO to put the final tweeks on the intonation.that G style chord has to sound just right ya know :)
 
I'm going to say this is yet another solution to a non-existent problem. And errors caused by the shape of the top of a fret are more than swamped by variations in finger pressure. I'm pretty damned sure I don't fret as powerfully with an extended pinky as I do with my middle finger. Everything still sounds fine, though.

It's a major issue if you are listening for real clarity. I know I'm a real odd duck, but I can pick up a guitar in Guitar Sinner, the $1,400.00USD - up top shelf Gibsons, and play a minute or two and tell you its not properly intonated. In each instance, the tech has verified an intonation issue. Sometimes, he can correct it, but on a lot of these flat top guitars, it is never in pitch...
 
Well FWIW, I just had a look to compare the frets on my four guitars, all with minimal fret wear. Two Gibson's, a 2013 60's tribute SG (a budget model), a 2012 Les Paul traditional, one Fender, a 2012 Select Strat & a Jackson, 2014 Pro Soloist. . Which one had the flattest topped flat topped frets? The Fender. Now remember that the select was the top of the range, the next step up was custom shop. The Jackson's frets are the best. The (both) Gibson's frets are noticeably not as flat on top as the strat's. I use a Planet Waves tru strobe tuner, accurate to +/- 0.1 of a cent. The guitars are properly intonated. The thing is, a guitar is not a perfect temperament instrument. That's the long & short of it. Exotic compensated nuts, fanned or weird shaped exotic frets etc have been thrown at guitars but why. Plenty of perfectly good music has been made with less than perfection in instruments. Like the 3 saddle telecasters. Good enough for Roy Buchanan, good enough for me. Cheers
Edit; I must say though, even the Fender's frets are nowhere near as flat topped as the diagram shown in post 5 of the link Robert posted. Not even close to. Cheers

Temperament...good point. This may be why some guitars just have that certain something??? I know that when I start comparing intonation between the first and the 13th fret, the 2nd and the 14th, and so on, some guitars have huge anomalies in intonation.

Good music...good point too...Down at Buck Owen's Studio one day, we were getting ready to do a Willie Nelson cover tune for a friend's album. Buck's guitarist said jokingly, "Oh, cool. We don't even have to tune for that!" There is some truth to that.

I'm just sharing what I hear. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just curious of anyone else hears what I am hearing???
 
I'm going to say this is yet another solution to a non-existent problem. And errors caused by the shape of the top of a fret are more than swamped by variations in finger pressure. I'm pretty damned sure I don't fret as powerfully with an extended pinky as I do with my middle finger. Everything still sounds fine, though.

I just posted that for information. I don't think the triangle shaped frets are the answer. I think it would play like a scalloped fretboard. If your touch isn't light enough, you got troubles...
 
It's my understanding the Gibson still places its frets by the old "rule of 18" method, which does not yield true just temperament. 12th root of 2 is the mathematically precise way of calculating frets. The result for Gibson is that some keys will play better in tune than others. I think they may be the only company still doing this.
 
It's my understanding the Gibson still places its frets by the old "rule of 18" method, which does not yield true just temperament. 12th root of 2 is the mathematically precise way of calculating frets. The result for Gibson is that some keys will play better in tune than others. I think they may be the only company still doing this.

Fascinating, Don!!! I didn't know that!!!!
 
Are you sure? There must be some days when they just get plain ornery - I know mine do.
The fault, dear Don, is not in our guitars, but in ourselves. (usually):)
I played an outdoor event Friday and could not get "right" with my gear, my SG classic sounding thin for the only time ever. I'm pretty sure I sounded like I always do to everyone else. I ended up using one of my Melody Makers with lots of OD to get testicular tone. Saturday, same gear, everything worked great.
 
The fault, dear Don, is not in our guitars, but in ourselves. (usually):)
I played an outdoor event Friday and could not get "right" with my gear, my SG classic sounding thin for the only time ever. I'm pretty sure I sounded like I always do to everyone else. I ended up using one of my Melody Makers with lots of OD to get testicular tone. Saturday, same gear, everything worked great.

Of course it's us. But we can blame it on the guitars - I know my appreciation of what sounds "right" changes with the hour of the day, my mood, hay fever, colds, back pain. You name it.
 
The fault, dear Don, is not in our guitars, but in ourselves. (usually):)
I played an outdoor event Friday and could not get "right" with my gear, my SG classic sounding thin for the only time ever. I'm pretty sure I sounded like I always do to everyone else. I ended up using one of my Melody Makers with lots of OD to get testicular tone. Saturday, same gear, everything worked great.

Of course it's us. But we can blame it on the guitars - I know my appreciation of what sounds "right" changes with the hour of the day, my mood, hay fever, colds, back pain. You name it.

Well, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. Most days, everything is copacetic between my gear and me. Some days, my guitar feels like a left thumb on a right hand.
 
Of course it's us. But we can blame it on the guitars - I know my appreciation of what sounds "right" changes with the hour of the day, my mood, hay fever, colds, back pain. You name it.
A couple of weeks ago an old band mate came by with a tape of a big 1984 Halloween show, which I remembered as being an off night. Listening to the 33 year old reel tape, I thought if that was our off night, no wonder we worked so much. (I also remembered how much Mike Bloomfield had influenced me) The other guys in the band were some of the best improvisational musicians I have ever worked with and we were fearless, a quality that got us a long way.
 
I tried some 9-42 guage strings on one of my guitars and you really got to be carefull about how much presure you use on those 9s. Even when my Peterson Strobe tuner says my intonation is perfect i have to put my own tweeks on it from what my ears hear and my playing style. Ill use the song My Generation from the WHO to put the final tweeks on the intonation.that G style chord has to sound just right ya know :)
When intonating we should use the same fretting pressure we would normally use when playing to get it right. I imagine your Peterson is like my Planet Waves, showing how much fretting pressure, or a slight sideways movement of the string affects pitch. Mine even register's the pick attack of a decent pick stroke as slightly sharper than the actual note. Cheers
 
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